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It does not seem to be doing a very good job of it; Mars' atmosphere is ~0.1% O2. Joel Send a noteboard - 06/12/2012 12:16:16 AM
I concede the Daily Mail/AP headline about "blowing up" the Moon is sensationalist even by my standards, but I think it noteworthy that both Americas scientists AND military quickly discarded Sagans idea because it was incredibly dangerous AND impractical. Taken with Sagans suggestion we "terraform" Mars by expending the entire global nuclear arsenal on it to raise its temperature and release subsurface oxygen (which Mars would still lack the gravity to retain) I cannot help feeling like "nuke it till it glows" was his solution to every problem (it goes without saying that such an extraordinary solution requires extraordinary evidence.)

Well nuking the moon and contaminating it is fairly silly, a surface blast would spread the shit everywhere and even a multi-megaton nuke wouldn't leave significant amounts over that sort of surface area, especially considering it's a radiation-blasted hellhole anyway. The issue is the contamination doesn't go away, and would be spread everywhere, because that whole lack of wind and rain means the fallout dust stays on the surface for more or less it's whole half-life anyway.

From what I could tell, the articles content does not support its headline about "blowing up" the moon: They intended a single A-bomb whose blast would be visible (or at least detectable) from Earth. It sounds like the planned deterrent was not "if you go to the Moon we will blow it up" but "we will blow up anyone you send to the Moon."

Now as to 'glassing' Mars, I don't know that I'd want to start terraforming a place by irradiating the hell out of it but Mars is entirely capable of keeping it's oxygen. Atmosphere retention has to do with the V-RMS of the particles in question, relative to the escape velocity of the planet, which from a practical standpoint has to do with how hot the planet gets and what the surface escape velocity is. Earth can't retain molecular hydrogen or helium for that reason, Earth out at Mar's orbit would retain them better because it would be cooler. Mars' escape velocity is 5 km/s vs our own 11, but keep in mind the V-rms is √(3RT/M), essentially oxygen, 16 times heavier than hydrogen, (mono or diatomic) has 1/4th the speed, V-rms, at the same temp, and Temp is fairly minimal as a factor here, as the square root of temps in Kelvin doesn't change much between Earth and Mars. It would leak oxygen and hydrogen faster than Earth - especially from the lack of decent magnetic field - but still ought to be geological timelines not years or decades.

You know the physics better than I, but just increasing the Martian atmospheres oxygen ratio to Earths would mean increasing its oxygen content 150X if it kept every atom. That still would not be enough to prevent hypoxia though, because the Martian atmosphere is only a small fraction as dense as Earths (i.e. even if it were 100% oxygen it would have far less per liter at the surface than Earth does.) As for temperature, I must ask you to elaborate on why lower temperatures aid gas retention, as I would expect gas molecules to escape more easily as they gain heat (and thus energy.) As you say though, there is little difference in Kelvins between Martian and Terran temperature, and bombarding Mars with thermonuclear bombs could only raise its temperature.

Keep in mind there's precious little practical difference between nuking the fuck out of Mars and bombarding it with icy asteroids and radioactive leftovers are a smaller issue with H-bombs, especially really big ones, because the byproducts of the Fusion stage are very, very short half-life stuff and you just have the radioactive remains of the fission stage which is more or less the same as an A-bomb with a tiny fraction of the power. When you're setting off 100-MT bombs you're getting parallel radioactive debris to a 100-kT in terms of leftover heavier-than-iron stuff because they have around the same amount (kinda). Lighter-than-iron byproducts are usually just temporarily charged, like particles in a radiation suit, don't hold it very long.

Unless I badly misunderstood thermonuclear weapons, the amount and persistence of fallout depends greatly on the bomb. I admit I only studied the topic as a layman years ago, but IIRC "basic" H-bombs use a fission cores heat to initiate fusion in surrounding hydrogen, producing relatively little fallout since fission byproducts are at the heart of a fusion reaction that leaves little but very hot helium that soon leaves Earth. However, an additional exterior fission stage is a very different, much dirtier affair, because fusion sends high energy particles streaming through an outer layer that quickly fissions and scatters to the four winds, leaving a trail of fission fallout in its wake. So really huge bombs (which terraforming surely requires) would pretty much cover the whole Martian surface in persistent radioactive fallout.

I consider it revealing that the US MILITARY objected on the grounds of danger to human life, while the scientific communitys only concern was contaminating the lifeless lunar surface. That kind of inverts the popular view of scientists as noble idealists who alone stand between soullessly homocidal generals and murderous abuse of technology.

American Physicists, last I checked, had a higher rate of military service then any other field except 'military science', followed by engineering, those two would essentially have been the two groups of scientists consulted on the matter. Not a bloodthirsty crowd but contrary to the stereotype weaponization of a given interesting new bit of science is usually very obvious to the discoverers and as a group I'd deem them neither more nor less likely than Random Joe to think that a good or bad thing. The group is further biased since the people asked would have been those from the group disproportionately made up of service members, prior serivce, or those that cheerfully worked with the military all the time, insofar as NASA was more or less a wing of the military back then.

Reasonable (though I would have expected a higher percentage of mechanics and metallurgists to join the military,) except that, once again, the senior career military officers were the ones saying, "um... this sounds kind of dangerous...." In other words, even the people who coined the dismissive euphemism "collateral damage" were concerned enough about it to kill the project, but the scientists' chief worry was evidently damaging something they had only begun studying.

Not caring about the risks though is absurd, that's an engineering issue of ensuring the bomb on rocket or flat out missile didn't disintegrate Challenger-style on the way up through the atmosphere, that wouldn't have bugged them in the planning stage as they'd simply assume they wouldn't shoot the fucker until it was very unlikely to not get there. As a rule scientists aren't noted for saying 'Let's scrap this plan entirely just in case we can't figure out a way to minimize the odds of the rocket exploding, especially since it's just a couple hundred kilos of Uranium or Plutonium raining down not an actual nuke, and we could launch it like we usually do so that the stuff would fall harmlessly into the ocean if it did blow up'.

So the generals were just worried -assuming the article is accurate - because they didn't know better, and are human, whereas the scientists did. Keep in mind that the super-majority of people who do the science and engineering on rocketry and/or nukes consider the general population freakishly paranoid, knee-jerk, and ignorant about the dangers of both.

That is a good point; one reason the thought of shooting nuclear waste into the sun (or just off-planet) appeals to me is that even in the relatively rare case of an accident the rocket would either wind up in the ocean or disintegrate in the upper atmosphere where the resulting terrestrial contamination would almost certainly be negligible. Generals whose familiarity with nukes came mainly from Bikini might have taken a very different view.
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Carl Sagan Advised US Defense Department to Win the Space Race by Nuking the Moon - 02/12/2012 05:04:40 PM 733 Views
Way to jump the shark, Carl. *NM* - 02/12/2012 06:48:30 PM 167 Views
Agreed - 06/12/2012 12:17:16 AM 470 Views
Mars can retain Oxygen just fine, and this isn't exactly new - 03/12/2012 12:25:14 AM 392 Views
It does not seem to be doing a very good job of it; Mars' atmosphere is ~0.1% O2. - 06/12/2012 12:16:16 AM 450 Views
There's a difference between retaining added and not having any - 06/12/2012 01:44:56 AM 356 Views
Not practically. - 07/12/2012 02:27:02 AM 973 Views
Am I missing something? - 03/12/2012 08:18:25 PM 505 Views
Perhaps Sagans subsequent suggestion we nuke Mars to make it habitable. - 05/12/2012 11:00:08 PM 471 Views
Re: Journalists - 05/12/2012 11:27:10 PM 492 Views

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