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Asking me about my coffee preferences? I wish they had when I was deployed, only got Maxwell House Isaac Send a noteboard - 05/12/2012 11:29:38 PM
We eventually guilted Dunkin Donuts into sending us a whole case - Evil Corporations! - but always the same damn coffee, big blue 5 pounder of Maxwell House Classic, not even options like Bold or Colombian. War is Hell man.

I find that comparison spectacularly good at providing perspective on new technologies and practices. The parallels are not perfect, of course, but the differences tend to even out in the end; businesses lack governments power to exploit and compound abuses with law enforcement and other official means, but the public lacks the ability to hold businesses accountable for abuses as they can elected officials. I would love to be able to expect the best of people, but experience, observation and knowledge of history has taught me just how dangerous that expectation is (hence the need for governments and a Savior.)


You hold a business accountable through not buying their stuff, and by buying from their competitor who doesn't do the thing that bugs you, you also use law and regulation, like outlawing anyone's ability to peer through people's house walls with a Superman-style X-ray vision.

If the system, when actually product tested and developed, offers people individual anonymity and discretion, as well as an off switch and an incentive not to push it, then it's good tech. If not then not, and it wouldn't sell. I for one wouldn't much mind if my system paid attention and popped out a note saying "Hey, you've said the word coffee 93 times this last month and never soda, how would you feel about me relaying that factoid up and you start getting coffee not soda commercials and a little less commercials overall?" "Why, yes, good idea." Says I or "No, I don't drink soda at all, and I always drink brand X of coffee" then says it, "Cool, I'll mark you as non-receipt for both then". That's useful tech, when used properly, same as an Xray machine can seriously invade your privacy but is also handy when used properly. Determining best usage has to wait till the tech is developed because Röntgen didn't know we'd be using Xrays to detect broken bones when he first studied them, and patents are part of that process. I don't see the big deal, it's a huge leap to assume mandatory usage.

Surveilling peoples homes precludes discretion.


Why? You simply state that as fact but it isn't, the electric company monitors your power usage and regularly stomps around people's lawns to check they're meters. And that's a monopoly, I can't tell them to bug off and buy from their competition, yet it's hardly a legitimat einvasion of privacy.

Your system (or its software) DOES aggressively monitor your input to figure out what to sell you: It just does not monitor your every word and deed for that or any reason, which is as it should be. Sorry, but people monitoring my living and bedrooms should definitely be "opt in" rather than "opt out." I sincerely doubt this "feature" would be heavily publicized given the natural and quite justified public alarm it provokes. More importantly, if it became the industry standard public awareness would be moot for anyone unwilling to live off the grid: One would either accept telecommunications companies monitoring them and their homes through electronic media or do without them entirely. If that is the price of media access it will sell just fine, more is the pity.



Buying a damn TV with a big camera on it and a sticker bragging about it's surveillance capability would be 'opt in', but you're initiating an argument - as you usually do - with the wind, we're discussing a technology able to monitor sight and sound to determine preferences and behavior, this is not an evil thing in of itself, we've been working on such things for decades for things like Handicap access. You're asusming the tech will be used for something, and in the most parnaoid and intrusive fashion, simply because someone is developing it. Let's take an alternative:

I develop a little touch screen pad with a camera and microphone that hangs on the kitchen fridge. It magically monitors everything going ito and out of that fridge and my general kitchen behavior and compiles - for me and my household, not a company - a list of what products we used, how often, how many calories, etc. and produced shopping lists I could easily edit to add or remove and transmit to my phone for shopping at the store. I really ramp it up and it can wirelessly connect to a recipe database and let me know what I'm missing for recipes or suggest recipes I alreayd have the components for and that it thinks match my known tastes or requested diet.

Sound like a good product? Same tech conceptually. This is the epitome of proper tech, that which makes life more convenient and easy for mankind.

Now could that be abused? Potentially, a company might offer a discount model that preferences their products on suggested recipes, the government might subsidize it's production or hand them out to low income families and try to politically correct their diet, anything can be abused and we need to be vigilant for those abuses, especially the subtle sort, not paranoid about the core technology itself, because the same monitor might be able to just as easily say 'Fuck! You're having a Heart Attack, dialing 9-1-1!'

The bottom line is technology to surveill people in their homes without a warrant or even their knowledge has no "proper use." Verizon said outright it wants to listen to people having sex in their own homes so it can sell them birth control: That alone is improper (and extremely creepy.)


And idiot point, to conduct surveillance on people without their permission, or in a specific fashion they do not like, without warrant, has no place. An in house system I own that watches me and lets me know where I put my keys definitely has a use, and if some company wants to discount it for me in exchange for certain aspects of the data, then that's my decision, I may decide it's worth saving ten bucks a year - or being paid hundreds or thousands - to let them study my behavior as a template for others and find out that 32 year old males who drink coffee at 6 am while watching news are 5% more likely to be fond of redheads or whatever so they can target their 6am advertising with that in mind and now more commercials on Fox or CNN at 6 AM feature hot redheads as spokespersons for Folgers. This is my right as a person, it's their right to offer me such a discount or bonus and mine to accept or decline, but that's nothing to do with the basic tech, which would have vast numbers of positive applications.

The concept is just plain creepy. It is stunning to me how fast the digital age has produced an entire generation that is willing to basically give up all of their privacy. I am just dumbfounded at the idea that anybody would be OK with a concept like this.

It is stunning to me how fast people rewrite both recent and distant history to fit their narratives.

We have a cultural very interested in privacy and we descend principally from cultures who had little expectation of privacy, typically living in one or two room huts in villages or tribes where everyone knew everyone and every rumor and past infraction they'd ever committed. Most of our lack of privacy these days comes from idiots voluntarily airing their dirty laundry on Facebook or Twitter anyway.

Ancient history, maybe, but ever since people stopped hunting mastodons and living communally in caves they have had a reasonable and substantial expectation of privacy. Perhaps not always within their own family, but they did not tolerate strangers snooping through their homes and monitoring speech there for personal profit (or any reason.) Certainly since Madison and Co. declared "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated," the US has preserved a strong right to privacy.


You mean in the last couple centuries we hunted Mastodons? Hell that screws up my view of history, I guess all those people in third world countries, or 1st world ghettos, I encountered who lived several people to tiny 1-3 room places hunt extinct animals. Apparently all those American Colonials who did the same regularly a century or two ago did too. We presumably stopped hunting Mastodons in the late 1700's when the US ratified the Constitution.

Obviously publicly volunteering ones personal information does not infringe that right, but others invading ones privacy to obtain it definitely does. While the Constitution does not prevent private individuals from doing so, many other federal and local laws DO, for the very good reason that since the dawn of civilization people have rightly felt entitled to say and think what they like in the privacy of their own homes without strangers or the general public looking over their shoulders. Anonymous strangers going around town in the dead of night to ensure everyone slept in the right bed went out with the Inquisition. If my wife asks me to remind her of my bank account number while we are sitting on our own sofa I should not need to fear my TV is listening. (8


Where is this invasion coming from? Thus far we have a patent from a company who believes behavior recognizing software is a thing of the future and wants to make sure they have a cut of the cake, probably base don them already having a good portions of the ingredients.

This is literally right out of 1984 (in Soviet Russia, TV watches YOU!) People who celebrate business acts they would call their militia captain about if performed by government are as perplexing as those who celebrate government acts they would call their lawyer about if performed by a business. With very few exceptions, behavior ill-advised and dangerous from one is no less so for the other, because if the means vary slightly, the ends vary only superficially.


Yeah, the whole right wing is paranoid about gov't but not corporations narrative fails the test insofar as Drudge reported this and right-wingers are freaking out too. Sorry to burst your bubble, though points for the 'in Soviet Russia' :P
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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New DVR will use camera and microphone to target advertisements based on recordings of users - 05/12/2012 06:53:30 AM 438 Views
dude, seriously...fuck that shit. *NM* - 05/12/2012 03:47:21 PM 143 Views
It's an early patent, you're overreacting and also privacy wasn't the norm in the past. - 05/12/2012 08:34:55 PM 274 Views
Would you mind the federal government doing the exact same thing? - 05/12/2012 10:36:42 PM 375 Views
Asking me about my coffee preferences? I wish they had when I was deployed, only got Maxwell House - 05/12/2012 11:29:38 PM 268 Views

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