first, I should clarify that these are the opinions of some, not all "Republicans,"
wolfsister Send a noteboard - 28/10/2012 04:02:13 PM
Including those in office, but also drawing on the opinions of Republicans that I personally know. I think that matters and is valid, considering these are the people that will potentially vote for people that will enforce these RIDICULOUS things.
I disagree on several points in here (namely condemnation of male homosexuality, outside of the context of idolatry, from the viewpoint of the Jews). But that is not the point of this post so I'm not going to go there. I just wanted to mention it.
Gotta agree with you here. Genesis actually speaks against many things we are "told" that it says (my favorite: the purpose of the first Biblical "marriage" is NOT baby-making! It's companionship!)
I feel like what you refer to as sex culture is in part what I'm talking about. The culture we live in makes people feel entitled to sex whether it is wanted by the partner or not. Definitely. The other part involves on our legal system. It's incredibly difficult to prove that you were raped, and yes, even though there are false rape accusations happening, there are also many men and women who do not come forward because of how our society shames them. THEN there are lovely gems such as this case ( http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Supreme-Court-sets-accused-rapist-free-3910077.php ) where the Supreme Court decided this woman was "able" to fight off her rapist but "didn't" so they sent him on his merry raping way. They are implying that women live in a constant state of consent which is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. NOTHING means "yes" except "yes," and the fact that the Supreme Court says otherwise is just... astounding. Watching people get away with rape DOES encourage others. This topic isn't just about women being raped, despite the fact that this rape culture is closely tied to the patriarchy and misogyny. Male rape victims rarely come forward and are often encouraged NOT to come forward. What more proof do you need?
The issue here is that the legal system does not take rape or any kind of sexual assault seriously. It shames the people who do come forward and sometimes punishes them financially as well (women/their insurance companies often have to pay for "rape kits" to be collected. What other crimes require this of the victim?).
Believing only un-wed whores want an abortion is hilarious to me, considering there have been a few articles/essays written on pro-life women coming and getting an abortion because "their case was different" than all the other women in the waiting room. Please. Classism at its finest!
Note I said the people the Bible is speaking about, not the Bible itself. I think this should be just as relevant to the conversation if you're looking to the Bible for answers. Although maybe I'm just one of those crazy people that thinks everyone should actually study the Bible, its time frame, the people it speaks of, and their culture before you go thumping it.
The Mishnah explicitly states that if the mother's life is in danger, the fetus should be aborted because her life is more valuable (so long as the "greater part" of the fetus is still inside her, implying, at least, late term abortions being okay). It does draw the line at the "greater part" of the fetus being outside of the mother, in the likelihood that the fetus has taken a breath and is therefore a human. That would be murder.
In the case of marriage being religious (especially in the Hebrew Bible), you're actually quite mistaken. Marriages within such a patriarchal construct were almost completely secular, and certainly not religious in the way marriages are performed today. And love is certainly not a requirement, and, in fact, the minority. They were agreements between houses, needed for economic survival. Bride prices were paid, as well as a dowry, both of which were likely one of the largest sources of income families would receive in their lifetime. The greatest value of a marriage at the time was in the manual labor it produced, not the love between people or its religious significance.
I agree with you that there is no legal or religious reason to ban polygyny. I'm just frustrated by the picking and choosing that happens when Bible-followers are trying to determine the private lives of the entire nation.
Yeah, not really. Taken as a whole, it DOES imply, as Monty Python put it, "every sperm is sacred," providing a good basis for prohibiting contraception and MALE homosexuality (and masturbation.) The closest it comes to abortion is setting an "eye for an eye" penalty if fighting men strike a pregnant woman (but that is assaulting her as much as the fetus) and condemning invaders genocidally ripping open the bellies of pregnant women (but that murders women whether or not it murders a child.)
I disagree on several points in here (namely condemnation of male homosexuality, outside of the context of idolatry, from the viewpoint of the Jews). But that is not the point of this post so I'm not going to go there. I just wanted to mention it.
Wouldn't it seem logical that maybe teaching people about safe sex ALONG with abstinence would prevent some of these abortions you hate so much? Not just in the "unwanted" pregnancy situations, but in the rape situations as well. Taking the time to bring awareness about the rape culture we live in (and not staying silent on the issue or even ENCOURAGING it, thereby making more and more rapists think it's okay!) may just have the same effect on the number of abortions in this country.
And contraceptives? Surprise! Contraceptives tend to stop unwanted pregnancies! Imagine that!
Yes, but the naïve parochial notion kids will not have sex as long as no one tells them about it is common. Even though the most plausible reading of Genesis is that the very first two humans found out on their own.
Gotta agree with you here. Genesis actually speaks against many things we are "told" that it says (my favorite: the purpose of the first Biblical "marriage" is NOT baby-making! It's companionship!)
That said, I dispute that we live in a "rape culture." We live in a SEX culture that convinces some people they are entitled to sex whether or not consensual, and encourages manipulating consent whether or not someone is competent to give it. To a great extent sex ed opposition is a reaction AGAINST that, not in support of it.
I feel like what you refer to as sex culture is in part what I'm talking about. The culture we live in makes people feel entitled to sex whether it is wanted by the partner or not. Definitely. The other part involves on our legal system. It's incredibly difficult to prove that you were raped, and yes, even though there are false rape accusations happening, there are also many men and women who do not come forward because of how our society shames them. THEN there are lovely gems such as this case ( http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Supreme-Court-sets-accused-rapist-free-3910077.php ) where the Supreme Court decided this woman was "able" to fight off her rapist but "didn't" so they sent him on his merry raping way. They are implying that women live in a constant state of consent which is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. NOTHING means "yes" except "yes," and the fact that the Supreme Court says otherwise is just... astounding. Watching people get away with rape DOES encourage others. This topic isn't just about women being raped, despite the fact that this rape culture is closely tied to the patriarchy and misogyny. Male rape victims rarely come forward and are often encouraged NOT to come forward. What more proof do you need?
So was a Midwestern Republican congressmans reminiscence that his father warned, "some girls rape easy:" That neither glorified nor condoned rape, but cautioned against casual CONSENSUAL sex, because false rape accusations are all too real. Sometimes it is a Catch 22; young girls whose parents constantly condemn pre-marital sex are predisposed to call consensual sex rape if it is revealed (e.g. by their pregnancy.) Noting that neither condones rape nor dismisses any rape accusations: It implicitly acknowledges all rape accusations should and will be taken seriously, so the best defense against false ones is restricting sex to committed long term relationships, not shouting, "LIAR!" at a woman whose name the accused does not even know. Telling people not avoid sex is not encouraging rape.
The issue here is that the legal system does not take rape or any kind of sexual assault seriously. It shames the people who do come forward and sometimes punishes them financially as well (women/their insurance companies often have to pay for "rape kits" to be collected. What other crimes require this of the victim?).
And then, when a woman in a life-threatening situation does need an abortion, you deny her one. Even though "traditional" marriage of one man and one woman is *SO* important, and clearly every child that didn't grow up with both is doomed? You're willing to kill off the woman who may already be a mother and destroy that family (and possibly any potential life that may come from that family later)? REALLY?
Technically, most Republicans nominally (just not actually) support abortion to save a womans life. That is why Walshs comment is so exceptional, but even he did not TECHNICALLY say he opposes abortion to save a womans life: He said there is no such thing, so federal law should ban all abortions (EFFECTIVELY forbidding abortions to save a womans life, the factual existence of which Walsh denies.)
I agree that ignores mothers and wives "traditional" families need, but too many extreme pro-lifers are convinced no one but unwed whores want an abortion. They just, y'know, try hard not to publicly say so—until this year.
Believing only un-wed whores want an abortion is hilarious to me, considering there have been a few articles/essays written on pro-life women coming and getting an abortion because "their case was different" than all the other women in the waiting room. Please. Classism at its finest!
And, in case you haven't noticed, unlike those ancient people you look to in the Bible for how to live your life, preservation of your race is not in danger. Not only that, but you should be aware that the people the Bible is speaking about required abortions in certain circumstances and valued the mother's life over the fetus' (even in their hard-core patriarchal society where woman were essentially baby-makers). So if you're looking for your justification there in specifics, you're going to be hard pressed to truly find it. As well as your views on "traditional" marriage and its "values." The Bible is filled with first wives, second wives, concubines, slave wives and hardly any nuclear families. We have so many people, so many KIDS that need homes right now... and you won't let LGBTQ people marry because of some taken-out-of-context, often mistranslated verses of the Bible? And even though marriage (to most Biblical peoples) was strictly economic and "secular" and really had nothing to do with religion at all? Many of those LGBTQ couples would be happy to take on your "unwanted" children, and some may have their own too! And on top of that, gays and lesbians have proven to be excellent parents! But no. Wouldn't want them to one-up us in the ability to raise rape-apologist, discriminatory, close-minded children.
I recall no case of the bible advocating abortion to save a mothers life, so please do share. Strictly within the biblical context, marriage almost invariably had a strong (but not solely) religious element. It also frequently had a polygamous (or at least polygynous) element, but there is no legal OR religious basis for banning that. Polygamy is prohibited because of an "ick" factor evidently no longer as strong for homosexuals, which I suppose is a kind of victory for the latter.
Note I said the people the Bible is speaking about, not the Bible itself. I think this should be just as relevant to the conversation if you're looking to the Bible for answers. Although maybe I'm just one of those crazy people that thinks everyone should actually study the Bible, its time frame, the people it speaks of, and their culture before you go thumping it.
The Mishnah explicitly states that if the mother's life is in danger, the fetus should be aborted because her life is more valuable (so long as the "greater part" of the fetus is still inside her, implying, at least, late term abortions being okay). It does draw the line at the "greater part" of the fetus being outside of the mother, in the likelihood that the fetus has taken a breath and is therefore a human. That would be murder.
In the case of marriage being religious (especially in the Hebrew Bible), you're actually quite mistaken. Marriages within such a patriarchal construct were almost completely secular, and certainly not religious in the way marriages are performed today. And love is certainly not a requirement, and, in fact, the minority. They were agreements between houses, needed for economic survival. Bride prices were paid, as well as a dowry, both of which were likely one of the largest sources of income families would receive in their lifetime. The greatest value of a marriage at the time was in the manual labor it produced, not the love between people or its religious significance.
I agree with you that there is no legal or religious reason to ban polygyny. I'm just frustrated by the picking and choosing that happens when Bible-followers are trying to determine the private lives of the entire nation.
to the max!
Congressman Joe Walsh (R-IL) Says Abortion Never Necessary to Save a Womans Life
27/10/2012 04:00:36 PM
- 876 Views
my friend's sister had an abortion that saved her life. ectopic pregnancy. people need to read. *NM*
27/10/2012 07:26:20 PM
- 281 Views
Yeah, he ultimately decided abortion was OK for ectopic pregnancy.
27/10/2012 09:18:00 PM
- 379 Views
Why is a 12 year old getting pregnant? Traffic doesn't care if jaywalkers are 12 or 30.
28/10/2012 03:04:50 AM
- 499 Views
Because she was raped; sex w/ 12 year olds, "consensual" or not, is pretty much illegal everywhere.
28/10/2012 01:56:37 PM
- 453 Views
sure. no instances except:
27/10/2012 11:45:54 PM
- 490 Views
Like when Romney insisted a mother of four not have an abortion to save her life?
28/10/2012 12:35:26 AM
- 644 Views
the views of some members of the republican party just confuse the hell out of me
28/10/2012 02:19:11 AM
- 402 Views
I hear ya, but factually lacking policies are only plausible on a factually flawed basis.
28/10/2012 02:16:40 PM
- 617 Views
first, I should clarify that these are the opinions of some, not all "Republicans,"
28/10/2012 04:02:13 PM
- 405 Views
It is demonstrably the opinion of Republican federal lawmakers, which is what counts.
28/10/2012 05:27:20 PM
- 453 Views
How about, if you have those conditions, don't get pregnant!
28/10/2012 03:17:23 AM
- 426 Views
it's not always possible to know ahead of time
28/10/2012 06:16:36 AM
- 449 Views
None of those myths would justify abortion, even if they were real.
01/11/2012 04:11:34 AM
- 376 Views
Contraceptives aren't perfect, you know
28/10/2012 02:18:37 PM
- 357 Views
Keep her legs together then. Really, the problems of a would-be child-killer are of nil concern *NM*
01/11/2012 04:07:06 AM
- 187 Views
How many abortions have you caused women to have, that you are so blind to the crap here?
28/10/2012 02:50:06 AM
- 412 Views
how many kids have you adopted, in order to preserve the life you claim to save?
29/10/2012 05:26:38 PM
- 411 Views
I guess... I'm confused about something. WHY do they all keep talking about this?
28/10/2012 04:36:45 PM
- 366 Views
It is like the monkeys and typewriters thing but with politicians and microphones
28/10/2012 04:47:26 PM
- 359 Views
The only plausible explanation is "because they believe it."
28/10/2012 05:42:18 PM
- 406 Views
Eh, I don't know. I feel like someone is telling them there is political capital to be made.
28/10/2012 06:35:34 PM
- 483 Views
Appealing to the base in the general election is usually a zero sum game.
28/10/2012 07:08:32 PM
- 496 Views