Active Users:1118 Time:23/11/2024 05:00:34 AM
Depends on where you look, and for how long. Joel Send a noteboard - 26/10/2012 01:19:00 AM
I defy you to find one example in the 1950s conservative South of someone going out of business because they refused to hire African-American as something other than a janitor.

For the modern age, I point at Chick Filet, which is doing just fine despite its clearly bigoted perspective and policies.

It simply isn't true that discrimination will work itself out on its own. Hell, that's the same argument we made about slavery. How long are we going to make that argument?

Slavery is something of a special case, because the cotton gin made it so much more economical its lifespan was extended at least a century. Beyond the Civil War via sharecropping and Jim Crow, and the former was a function of class rather than race discrimination that fostered the latter: As long as white sharecroppers had Jim Crow they were not the dregs of society, and the clung to it desperately as a result.

Anyway, no, Southern businesses were in no risk of going under for refusing to hire blacks in the '50s. Neither were Northern ones; if segregation were a purely Southern phenomenon the SCOTUS case that struck it down would not have been brought against Topeka, KS (a state infamously and bloodily formed by Free Soilers in a prelude to the Civil War.) However, the Equal Protection Clause was enough to decide that case and overturn both Plessy and the segregation dependent on it. That is not to say other remedies to restore universal liberty (e.g. the Twenty-Fourth Amendment) were not necessary and invaluable, but the most effective WERE universal (ibid.) Whether affirmative action quotas have done more harm than good remains an open question fifty years later.

I find it hard to support the notion Brown, the Montgomery boycott, the March on Washington and various highly publicized reaffirmations of the Equal Protection Clause would have made modern society any more discriminatory absent anti-discriminatory laws for the private sector. Businesses could get away with discrimination without losing custom when it had public sanction; removing that sanction removes the respectability on which that custom depends.

Chik-fil-A is doing alright now, and part of the reason is that much of their customer base already consisted of people who shared their views of homosexuality (et al.) However, much of it did not, and the backlash they have already experienced is enough they have begun withdrawing funding to overtly anti-gay organizations. Facing a choice between their religion and their wallet, I think we both know which the "Christian" right chooses every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

However, and this cannot be stressed enough, whether or not market forces drive discrimination from private businesses the fact remains they ARE private businesses. Yes, we want to eradicate bigotry, but not at the cost of eradicating independent thought and freedom. Unfortunately, people MUST have the right to bigotry, though if they make it the pretext for crimes they are as much (but no more) subject to prosecution for those crimes as everyone else is. In this case, I think the market can largely banish bigotry, but where it does not, where people are willing to patronize bigoted business owners, they must have that right if society is to truly be free. We dare not dictate, by majority rule or otherwise, how people believe, or dispose of their own property.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
For all you supporters of Gay Marriage: What about polygamy? - 20/10/2012 12:02:06 AM 1371 Views
Legal rights. - 20/10/2012 12:14:10 AM 778 Views
It almost sounds like you are saying... - 20/10/2012 12:31:40 AM 748 Views
That is what I'm saying it. - 20/10/2012 01:07:50 AM 729 Views
Technically, privileges, not rights. - 20/10/2012 04:16:45 AM 734 Views
Sure - 20/10/2012 12:35:53 AM 660 Views
All for it... For adults over the age of 18. *NM* - 20/10/2012 01:18:04 AM 390 Views
What about it? - 20/10/2012 01:21:17 AM 737 Views
+1 *NM* - 20/10/2012 01:51:25 AM 424 Views
+2 *NM* - 20/10/2012 11:18:39 AM 376 Views
should be legal, would be nice for poly people. should include polygyny and polyandry. *NM* - 20/10/2012 03:29:05 AM 376 Views
poly people? - 20/10/2012 12:44:01 PM 703 Views
Government needs to stop legislating morality. So yes *NM* - 20/10/2012 03:36:37 AM 368 Views
That's a huge chunk of what government does. - 20/10/2012 04:35:45 PM 707 Views
That's not what I'm saying - 21/10/2012 03:21:08 AM 723 Views
So you're opposed to abortion and gun control then? Welcome aboard! - 21/10/2012 06:14:14 AM 672 Views
Why do you keep talking about gay marriage and polygamy in the same sentence.. - 20/10/2012 03:58:26 AM 749 Views
Get a grip. Your response is just what I tried to avoid. - 20/10/2012 04:33:40 AM 667 Views
The more fool you. - 21/10/2012 05:55:30 AM 761 Views
Ha! Point. *NM* - 20/10/2012 05:40:34 AM 566 Views
Marriage is always a choice, whatever the motive(s.) - 22/10/2012 04:00:40 PM 693 Views
I got no opinion on it. - 20/10/2012 12:51:43 PM 790 Views
The idea of a group marriage makes me uncomfortable - 20/10/2012 04:19:48 PM 671 Views
As long as it is equitable - 20/10/2012 05:55:57 PM 663 Views
The state shouldn't even recognize marriage beyond name changes anyway - 21/10/2012 03:52:40 AM 735 Views
Indeed - 21/10/2012 06:04:41 AM 792 Views
I don't give a damn what you call it. That's your business. - 21/10/2012 06:17:40 AM 1068 Views
And so? - 21/10/2012 07:05:08 AM 700 Views
Re: And so? - 21/10/2012 04:10:19 PM 867 Views
Legal contracts must be open to all consenting adults, or none. - 22/10/2012 03:11:55 PM 747 Views
You are correct, yet your reasoning is flawed. - 23/10/2012 03:20:25 PM 674 Views
Again, the Equal Protection Clause has far less force on private entities than on government. - 23/10/2012 03:52:06 PM 606 Views
Much less force, yes. - 23/10/2012 04:15:03 PM 615 Views
The crux is "If it's my business, it's my business." - 23/10/2012 04:43:25 PM 687 Views
Re: The crux is "If it's my business, it's my business." - 23/10/2012 07:15:17 PM 631 Views
Like you said: By referring to "all invididuals" (or, better, "persons" or "citizens.") - 24/10/2012 04:14:55 PM 653 Views
But we know very well that it doesn't have dire commercial consequences. - 25/10/2012 07:17:55 PM 708 Views
Depends on where you look, and for how long. - 26/10/2012 01:19:00 AM 669 Views
+1 *NM* - 23/10/2012 07:36:46 PM 309 Views
No the analogy is not exact, nor legally the same... - 23/10/2012 07:33:25 PM 582 Views
Analogy is not equality, only similarity. - 24/10/2012 04:37:29 PM 781 Views
We aren't asking for something better or different. - 23/10/2012 04:27:04 PM 675 Views
yeah, it is very circular. - 23/10/2012 07:44:33 PM 706 Views

Reply to Message