nobody is arguing the legal right to marry, they are arguing about the legal rights marriage gives
moondog Send a noteboard - 19/10/2012 11:37:14 PM
1: There is NO legal right to marriage, PERIOD. You will not find marriage in the Constitution (the location of ALL our rights). There is NO right.
i never claimed there were. the legal rights involved deal with the union of two people, whatever their gender may be. inheritance rights, hospital visitation, power of attorney, citizenship status and many other rights are given to legally recognized marriages. these are the things that gay people are asking, not a separate classification.
the only time the separate classification comes in is when state legislatures try to create a "domestic partnership" or "civil union" in an effort to provide the legal framework of a marriage without running afoul of DOMA. by not defining the "civil union" as marriage, it can be ruled legal. but by not defining it as marriage, it is automatically not the same as marriage. gay couples can call themselves married without going through the paperwork, but if one of them should end up spending a lot of time in the hospital, the person they call their husband/wife is not legally able to share their potentially last moments with them. they are not able to make the decision to keep their spouse on life support if need be. they are not able to inherit their spouse's belongings the way a heterosexual couple can -- tax free.
the only thing DOMA and the various state laws against gay marriage do is create a second class of citizens who do not and will not have these rights and the many others that belong to legally recognized marriages. all the gay community is asking for is the same legal protections that straight couples already have. the only place that it becomes contentious is by calling it marriage for everyone, not just for the single man and single woman couple, but for any couple regardless of their gender.
3: The existing framework is man and woman; man and man, or woman and woman is something different, thus not the same.
but the existing framework can include man/man or woman/woman. please provide an actual legal basis for why it should not. what purpose is there for the government to deny a man/man or woman/woman relationship the same rights and status as a man/woman relationship. in other words, why does the government have the right to tell people who they are allowed to be in a relationship with? for what social purpose does it serve to deny them the same legal benefits?
4: The point is (and Utah does not accept polygamy either) that it is NOT about equal rights. If it was then it would be about eliminating ANY restriction upon who can form a marriage, but it is not (Me too. Me too. No, not them; just me too).
how is it not about equal rights? there is one specifically defined group (man/woman marriage) who has more rights than other groups (man/man or woman/woman marriages). you are trying to reduce this to an absurd argument which holds no weight. the only thing that is being asked is to allow marriages between two people who are not specifically man/woman relationships. nothing more, and nothing less.
We got legally divorced (with children) and it was about as amicable as possible. We get along much better divorced than we ever did married, I just enjoy the cliche
luckily i did not end up having kids with my now ex-wife, but the divorce was also about as amicable as could be. even so, what the both of us went through both in being married and ending those marriages provided us a legal framework that gay couples currently do not have. this is why it is an equal rights issue, and why it is a legal matter to be settled in this country. we can't call ourselves the land of the free if we have a group which does not share the same rights as the rest of the country. again, it was once illegal to marry outside your race. i would have never married my ex if we still had those laws (and it's questionable now whether i should have to begin with ). but if it is wrong to deny marriage to inter-racial couples, then it should also be wrong to deny marriage to same sex couples.
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"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
2nd Circuit rules in favor of Edith Windsor. DOMA unconstitutional.
18/10/2012 08:37:12 PM
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Completely unsurprising since the Justice department refuses to defend the law.
18/10/2012 09:05:16 PM
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For a moment there I thought you were saying the Supreme Court had ruled it unconstitutional.
18/10/2012 09:10:16 PM
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Do you know if there's a case about DOMA and the "full faith and credit" clause?
18/10/2012 10:05:11 PM
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I don't know offhand, but my gchat friend will. If she pops on again, I'll ask her. But...
18/10/2012 10:37:09 PM
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I asked her about pending cases taking on Section 2. "None that I know of," she answered. *NM*
19/10/2012 12:46:21 AM
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I wonder about that one as well.
19/10/2012 12:39:54 AM
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Re: I wonder about that one as well.
19/10/2012 01:18:22 AM
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Either a ban discriminates against those affected more than those unaffected, or it does not.
19/10/2012 03:48:32 PM
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Gun control laws can equally affect everyone, though, is my point.
20/10/2012 10:52:41 PM
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I'm sure there is. The California case is likely to discuss it.
19/10/2012 02:48:02 PM
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I just have to note in passing that Ted Olsons memoires will make fascinating reading.
19/10/2012 04:44:15 PM
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Also, hooray! Let's hope SCOTUS adheres (if you use that term over there). *NM*
18/10/2012 10:59:14 PM
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As it should be; the DoMA was always a brazen affront to the Equal Protection Clause
19/10/2012 12:06:13 AM
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Not really
19/10/2012 02:16:04 PM
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Then by the "legal argument" you all propose I should have the "right" to marry a spoon...
19/10/2012 05:48:32 PM
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if your spoon or dog is capable of making power of attorney decisions then by all means do so *NM*
19/10/2012 06:41:43 PM
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How about I "marry" a corporation then. THAT is how stupid the entire arguement is. *NM*
19/10/2012 07:25:13 PM
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provide for us a legal reason why marrying a corporation should be recognized by the US gov't
19/10/2012 08:09:08 PM
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The argument above was that there was no jsutification it should not, thus it should be allowed.
19/10/2012 10:57:16 PM
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you are only offering your own emotional take on a legal decision there is no logic in your posts
19/10/2012 11:12:17 PM
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Wrong. I do not have an emotional stake in this, I am simply using logic. *NM*
22/10/2012 03:59:08 PM
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saying you should be able to marry a spoon or corporation is not logical reasoning. try again *NM*
22/10/2012 06:19:29 PM
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EXACTLY, and that was the point I was making. Congratualtions for figuring that out. *NM*
22/10/2012 11:34:46 PM
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you are obviously using some humpty dumpty definition of "logic" then *NM*
22/10/2012 11:40:12 PM
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No, you apparently failed reading comprehension in school.
23/10/2012 03:08:44 PM
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#1: fuck you. #2: you are still not using logic
23/10/2012 05:50:14 PM
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Ah yes, the fuck you argument... the height of all intelectual persuits... and you call ME emotional
23/10/2012 06:47:21 PM
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i see -- it's ok to be insulting as long as the "f-bomb" is not used. got it.
23/10/2012 10:27:54 PM
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Another good example of how corporations aren't the same as people. *NM*
19/10/2012 10:07:32 PM
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Would you be the bride? Would you wear white?
20/10/2012 07:58:52 PM
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You have obviously not read my posts very carefully
22/10/2012 04:23:22 PM
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Ah, the "I have Gay Friends" argument.
22/10/2012 09:33:41 PM
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No, I am not, try reading everything I have written on the subject before jumping to conclusions.
22/10/2012 11:41:05 PM
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It was only a matter of time.
19/10/2012 02:49:21 PM
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I do not understand why fundamentalists demand government dictate religion.
19/10/2012 03:22:54 PM
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Which is why the entire method of legal attack being mounted is dumb.
19/10/2012 05:53:12 PM
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the only ones forcing their beliefs down everyone's throats are people like yourself
19/10/2012 06:44:57 PM
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There is no right being denied...
19/10/2012 07:22:24 PM
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that is bullshit and you know it. or, alternatively, you do not understand legality in any way
19/10/2012 08:06:54 PM
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Re: that is bullshit and you know it. or, alternatively, you do not understand legality in any way
19/10/2012 11:11:55 PM
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nobody is arguing the legal right to marry, they are arguing about the legal rights marriage gives
19/10/2012 11:37:14 PM
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There are no "marriage rights" NONE, zip, ziltch, nada...
22/10/2012 04:18:15 PM
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why bother settling custody in a divorce then if there are no "marriage rights"?
22/10/2012 06:38:14 PM
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You are making one, huge factual mistake that is screwing up your entire argument:
20/10/2012 11:00:28 PM
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