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There are two separate issues: 1) Was it a simultaneous catch; 2) IF not, was it a strip? Joel Send a noteboard - 27/09/2012 08:54:52 AM
If the answer to either question is "yes," the TD call was correct. Further, because a TD was the call on the field, it could only be reversed if the replay showed incontrovertible proof the answer to both questions is "no." I just do not see any convincing argument for that.

the position you keep arguing is that -- in the specific situation when a defender catches a pass for an interception and a receiver is right there to try to stop him from making the interception -- if the receiver tries to take the ball away from the defender at any point after the interception has been made, all he has to do is keep one hand on the ball while they go to the ground and it is a simultaneous catch.

No, my position is that possession is simultaneous (and goes to the receiver by rule) if they both grab it at the same time, and that the receiver does need both hands on the ball to accomplish that. HOWEVER, even if that is not the case, and the defender has uncontested possession, the receiver may still strip him and gain uncontested possession himself until/unless the defender is ruled down.

is no point where tate has CLEAR possession of the ball but there are several points where jennings does. in the last frame of the picture above the ball is clearly against jennings' body and tate is underneath him. not only that, but tate's right arm is ON JENNINGS and not the ball. i can think of no ruling ever in the history of the NFL where this was considered a simultaneous possession until monday night.

Because the call on the field was a TD, the burden of proof is to demonstrate Tate did NOT have possession of the ball, not to prove he did. Granted, I have only seen online video, but when doing so it looks to me like Tates right hand is over Jennings arm and on the BALL at the point of Jennings reception, evidence for simultaneous possession. Shortly thereafter he appears to get his left hand on the ball as well, though I am aware of no NFL rule requiring a receiver possess a ball with both hands (and one handed catches are, though unusual far from unheard of.)

However (and once again,) even if Jennings had uncontested possession, Tate could still have stripped him and gained uncontested possession himself until/unless Jennings was down. The pictures and videos I have seen do not show anything but Jennings' feet on the ground; the rest of his body is either on Tate (not the ground) or not visible. Since a player is only down by contact when any part of their body except feet or hands touch the ground, there is no way to definitively say Jennings was down, and Tate could have legally stripped him and gained uncontested possession even if he never previously had contested possession.

Live action, I would almost certainly have called that simultaneous possession and a TD; again, the refs on the field do not have the benefit of slo mo replays, zooms and stills to aid them in making that call. At game speed there is NO way you can tell me you could have said with certainty that was not a simultaneous catch. And in that situation, once a call—ANY call—is made it is impossible to overturn; there is simply no incontrovertible evidence with which to do so. That play demonstrates the importance of refs who know and apply the rules well, not because those refs did not, but because they DID yet their many less competent critics THINK they did not.

It may be the worst thing to happen to the WI GOP since Joe McCarthy though, which gives me a great deal of guilty amusement. Ultimately, there is a world of difference between public employee unions who have several remedies against imperious management (the ballot box chief among them) and private unions who do not. However, that is being completely lost in ridicule of Walker and Ryans past attacks on public unions juxtaposed with their support of the referees union now that the strike has harmed Wisconsins home team. On the other hand, it is not as if the WI GOP is exactly cozy with private unions either, so the ridicule is mostly deserved even if not because of the specific anti-public union law Walker signed. The best part was Ryans Through the Looking Glass argument Obama cost GB the game. :rolleyes:
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This message last edited by Joel on 27/09/2012 at 08:55:13 AM
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/NFL: now that replacement refs have cost the packers a win, can we please get the real ones back? *NM* - 25/09/2012 05:14:58 AM 658 Views
I was gonna keep it to one thread, but hell, I'll join yours. - 25/09/2012 05:24:26 AM 681 Views
Link? Clip? - 25/09/2012 05:27:07 AM 648 Views
Let's just say that Gruden used the word "Jobbed" in the live telecast. *NM* - 25/09/2012 05:35:08 AM 411 Views
Here's a link. - 25/09/2012 05:36:56 AM 734 Views
Yes and no; that is the link I referenced in my post. - 25/09/2012 05:47:07 AM 544 Views
Re: Yes and no; that is the link I referenced in my post. - 25/09/2012 05:52:55 AM 785 Views
Re: Yes and no; that is the link I referenced in my post. - 25/09/2012 06:13:46 AM 738 Views
youtube link - 25/09/2012 07:00:29 AM 741 Views
Thanks; that looks like a textbook case of simultaneous possession, which goes to the receiver: TD. - 25/09/2012 07:29:28 AM 637 Views
pete carroll is a cheating douchebag, you cannot take his word for what happened - 25/09/2012 10:59:33 AM 900 Views
I did not; I watched the clip: Simultaneous possession, which goes to the receiver. - 26/09/2012 01:30:18 AM 1244 Views
watch a better replay if you can - 26/09/2012 02:38:17 AM 704 Views
Have now; still not convinced. - 26/09/2012 04:01:23 AM 743 Views
that's ok. you're still wrong - 26/09/2012 04:12:56 AM 754 Views
I know you are but what am I? *MN* - 26/09/2012 04:48:47 AM 706 Views
How have you not seen this play? Are you in a cave? *NM* - 25/09/2012 03:57:55 PM 349 Views
No, I am in Norway, where NFL coverage is rather limited. - 26/09/2012 01:40:07 AM 845 Views
Wait, you're not in Houston? *NM* - 26/09/2012 01:42:45 AM 366 Views
Not since the Texas Sesquicentennial, no. - 26/09/2012 01:45:29 AM 617 Views
While you can hardly blame the replacement refs because they are basically trainees... - 25/09/2012 06:05:22 AM 819 Views
Now I really want to see this play. - 25/09/2012 06:27:42 AM 814 Views
Re: Now I really want to see this play. - 25/09/2012 02:48:56 PM 725 Views
I have still only seen the YouTube clip, but it looked like they both had both hands on the ball. - 26/09/2012 01:58:27 AM 655 Views
There are good views on nfl.com. Will link. - 26/09/2012 02:16:51 AM 827 Views
Thanks; I still do not see much to change my mind. - 26/09/2012 02:32:43 AM 722 Views
The last call was a joke. - 25/09/2012 06:52:59 AM 667 Views
Tie goes to the receiver - the rule for decades. The Packers benefitted from worse calls last year - 25/09/2012 11:31:47 AM 754 Views
you probably think greedo shot first too..... - 25/09/2012 01:49:03 PM 706 Views
They can't reverse that call. - 25/09/2012 04:43:28 PM 791 Views
the only possible way was to rule it incomplete - 25/09/2012 10:42:25 PM 766 Views
Congrats Cannoli, you are the only person (thing?) in the country who thinks it's a TD *NM* - 25/09/2012 03:53:18 PM 473 Views
I'm not even the only person in this thread, moron. *NM* - 25/09/2012 04:07:48 PM 386 Views
Joel hasn't even seen the play, douchebag *NM* - 25/09/2012 04:12:35 PM 351 Views
Just so you can get this information without namecalling ... - 25/09/2012 04:18:41 PM 679 Views
No I mean he hasn't seen the replay over and over on ESPN *NM* - 25/09/2012 04:21:46 PM 356 Views
Interesting. What is the rule with arguing refs? - 25/09/2012 05:18:35 PM 618 Views
That response was disturbingly like my thoughts on the play. - 26/09/2012 01:49:37 AM 708 Views
As a Seahawks fan. - 25/09/2012 02:10:58 PM 664 Views
No. Not with that attitude. *NM* - 25/09/2012 04:03:32 PM 330 Views
*throws public tantrum* *NM* - 25/09/2012 10:39:22 PM 320 Views
Here's the proof Cannoli is refusing to see - 25/09/2012 05:54:07 PM 762 Views
Clearer shot, but stills do not allow us to see where Tates hands were at all times. - 26/09/2012 02:10:25 AM 567 Views
you can't claim "good ol' strip" *AND* simultaneous catch -- which is it? - 26/09/2012 02:35:41 AM 1000 Views
I do not claim both: I claim simultaneous catch but IF not, then strip. - 26/09/2012 03:51:47 AM 987 Views
you sure you saw the right replay? - 26/09/2012 04:21:57 AM 684 Views
Think so, yeah. - 26/09/2012 04:58:15 AM 806 Views
from another angle -- pun intended - 26/09/2012 04:01:54 PM 672 Views
There are two separate issues: 1) Was it a simultaneous catch; 2) IF not, was it a strip? - 27/09/2012 08:54:52 AM 858 Views
your opinion is against pretty much everyone in the world, so..... *shrug* - 27/09/2012 03:55:33 PM 890 Views
Thanks; I did not expect you to give in so easily. - 27/09/2012 10:14:30 PM 714 Views
did you even read that article??? - 28/09/2012 12:35:39 AM 725 Views
"his control wasn’t established again...." - 28/09/2012 01:08:03 AM 1000 Views
wow, what a thorough analysis you sent me either way, you're still wrong - 28/09/2012 02:05:24 AM 791 Views
That is not an argument. - 28/09/2012 02:26:58 AM 613 Views

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