I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter.
Joel Send a noteboard - 24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM
Whoever wrote the letters supposedly written by "Paul" that made their way into the New Testament before someone said, "Hey, wait, Paul wrote in Greek a lot better than this!" went for the big guns. There is a also Gnostic Gospel of Peter, of James, of Philip...the list goes on.
Yeah, see, those seem like better choices for attempted legitimacy than the secretaries and traveling companions of the Disciples named.
However, you seem to be disregarding the entire second paragraph of what I wrote. The gospels circulated anonymously for some time, and when people started putting names on them to attribute them to someone, they based it on their understanding of who wrote the book, rather than intentionally lie to increase the book's popularity. The text was already accepted, and there was likely an oral tradition about who might have written it. The oral traditions around the four canonical gospels determined their attribution, and the same is likely true of Thomas and a few of the earlier Gnostic works.
Some of the later attributions might be the result of competition and lying, but of the canonical gospels Matthew might have gotten its name in the same way, given the late date of its attribution. The people who stuck the name on top might even have wanted to use someone else's name, but that name was already taken.
Some of the later attributions might be the result of competition and lying, but of the canonical gospels Matthew might have gotten its name in the same way, given the late date of its attribution. The people who stuck the name on top might even have wanted to use someone else's name, but that name was already taken.
I did not disregard it, only treat it separately. Speculative ex post facto attribution is a reasonable objection to the canonical Gospels legitimacy, but certainly no argument FOR the non-canonical ones legitimacy. At that point we are dealing with "Gospels" all or most Church Fathers partly or wholly rejected IN ADDITION TO their authorship being both late and speculative in the first place. That leaves almost nothing to support them except that an age difference of a century or more can seem trivial from a distance of two millennia. However, if a Second Century manuscript looks a lot like a First Century one to our eyes, human longevity was even less then than now, and even today someone promoting a week old "Hidden Gettysburg Address" would be deservedly ridiculed into mortified silence.
It reminds me of the Hitchhikers Guide; a "hidden Gospel" cannot be accepted as authentic unless:
1) It is reliably dated to at least the early Second, if not late First, Century,
2) Its language and doctrine is consistent with Gospels that already generally recognized to be legitimate or
3) You really want to.
As I recall, Adams went to note that the last option usually involved cutting others in on the resulting profits, which may explain much of the "hidden Gospels."
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds...
19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM
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That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM*
19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM
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What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church.
19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM
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Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride"
19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM
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What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God?
20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM
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BRIDE
20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM
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I love your last two sentences. They're a really nice description. *NM*
20/09/2012 07:58:19 PM
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That makes sense for an eternal God, but sounds like a wife who remains a bride.
20/09/2012 08:56:07 PM
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It's "bride" in the Old Testament as well.
20/09/2012 09:48:37 PM
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The distinction is important for preserving the newlywed condition, but not for this fragment.
20/09/2012 11:21:52 PM
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Two things why it is important
20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM
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Did someone hit you over the head? "Two things why it is important"? Really?
20/09/2012 03:50:02 PM
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Something I forgot to ask you about last night: What is your take on Daniels messianic prophecy?
20/09/2012 09:21:32 PM
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I don't get that at all. "And will be no more", or "And will have nothing" is better.
20/09/2012 10:13:20 PM
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It is the King James text, which I have never heard anyone call heretical.
20/09/2012 11:15:54 PM
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The King James Bible is aesthetically pleasing but a bad translation.
21/09/2012 12:03:00 AM
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I like the NKJV because it tries to include all ambiguities.
21/09/2012 12:47:38 AM
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There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD:
20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM
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The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD.
20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM
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What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it?
20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM
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The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies
21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM
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I would buy 200 AD, of course.
21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM
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It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point.
21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM
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Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD.
22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM
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I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors.
22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM
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Not even Mark or Luke?
22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM
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Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek
22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM
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True, but everyone also knew Paul spoke it fluently, and he would have been an ideal choice.
24/09/2012 06:20:22 AM
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Some people did "lie big".
24/09/2012 02:11:58 PM
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I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter.
24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM
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I'm not trying to defend Gnosticism doctrinally, but...
24/09/2012 11:51:40 PM
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I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though.
25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM
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The Gnostic response would be:
25/09/2012 06:01:58 AM
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That just sounds like more conspiracy allegations based on desire rather than evidence.
25/09/2012 07:15:06 AM
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The issue of evidence for Gnosticism would make this thread unnecessarily long.
25/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition?
22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM
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Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago.
22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM
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Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well
22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM
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Let's not get started on Funk
22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM
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don't these people have anything better to do?
20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM
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Clearly not.
22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM
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