What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it?
Joel Send a noteboard - 20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM
You chose...poorly.
The Gospel of Judas is certainly a later Gnostic work, but the Gospel of Thomas is one of the more compelling non-canonical works from the early Christian period. Even those who think it was written later than the canonical Gospels do not place it after 150 AD. Furthermore, although there are hints of Gnosticism in it, it is not properly a Gnostic work per se.
The Gospel of Judas is certainly a later Gnostic work, but the Gospel of Thomas is one of the more compelling non-canonical works from the early Christian period. Even those who think it was written later than the canonical Gospels do not place it after 150 AD. Furthermore, although there are hints of Gnosticism in it, it is not properly a Gnostic work per se.
I will not pretend to have exhaustively studied it, but have not seen even references reliably dated beyond the late Second Century AD. Skimming the Wikipedia article on the subject turned up the following references:
Nicholas Perrin, "Thomas: The Fifth Gospel?," Journal of The Evangelical Theological Society 49 (March 2006): 66–80
Nicholas Perrin. Thomas and Tatian: The Relationship Between the Gospel of Thomas and the Diatessaron (Academia Biblica, 5). Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill Academic Publishers, 2003.
The first argues that, based on the second suggests, the "Gospel" of Thomas may have been recorded as late as 172 AD. If you have some ironclad proof it was around before then I would love to see it (as, no doubt, would Perrin.)
Furthermore, your argument against Gnosticism is a specious one that defies all of the rules of logic. I am not defending it, but your indictment of it is based on a reasoning that is beyond any attempt to make any sense of. Essentially, you say that the first reference to Gnostics in Paulinian writings is criticism. That would be like saying, in a world where Mormonism became dominant, "We know that Catholicism is wrong because the first reference to it in Mormon writings is to denounce it."
On the contrary, had Mormonism been around for a century and a half, perhaps more, before suddenly taking time to denounce previously unattested Roman Catholicism, I think that would be a valid objection to the latter. If we had some positive or even nocommital references to it from the same date, especially if they referred to it as an earlier work, that would be different. Instead, it was not even mentioned until the Christian Church had been around for a century, and likely much more, and all we have then is a categorical denunciation. It is more like if the Book of Mormon and related documents had never been written, but someone came along 20 years ago to say the whole thing was a bunch of hooey: Would that validate Joseph Smiths claims?
The reasons why Gnosticism is an unattractive candidate for metaphysical truth lies in its own internal contradictions.
Yeah, those, too, certainly, but not only those. Gnosticism was just the Unitarianism of its day, recasting any and all divine revelation as metaphysical allegory. Trying to backdate their sacred texts to be products of existing religions, however, does kind of clinch things.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds...
19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM
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That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM*
19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM
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What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church.
19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM
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Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride"
19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM
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What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God?
20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM
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BRIDE
20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM
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I love your last two sentences. They're a really nice description. *NM*
20/09/2012 07:58:19 PM
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That makes sense for an eternal God, but sounds like a wife who remains a bride.
20/09/2012 08:56:07 PM
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It's "bride" in the Old Testament as well.
20/09/2012 09:48:37 PM
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The distinction is important for preserving the newlywed condition, but not for this fragment.
20/09/2012 11:21:52 PM
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Two things why it is important
20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM
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Did someone hit you over the head? "Two things why it is important"? Really?
20/09/2012 03:50:02 PM
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Something I forgot to ask you about last night: What is your take on Daniels messianic prophecy?
20/09/2012 09:21:32 PM
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I don't get that at all. "And will be no more", or "And will have nothing" is better.
20/09/2012 10:13:20 PM
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It is the King James text, which I have never heard anyone call heretical.
20/09/2012 11:15:54 PM
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The King James Bible is aesthetically pleasing but a bad translation.
21/09/2012 12:03:00 AM
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I like the NKJV because it tries to include all ambiguities.
21/09/2012 12:47:38 AM
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There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD:
20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM
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The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD.
20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM
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What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it?
20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM
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The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies
21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM
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I would buy 200 AD, of course.
21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM
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It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point.
21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM
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Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD.
22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM
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I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors.
22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM
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Not even Mark or Luke?
22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM
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Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek
22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM
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True, but everyone also knew Paul spoke it fluently, and he would have been an ideal choice.
24/09/2012 06:20:22 AM
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Some people did "lie big".
24/09/2012 02:11:58 PM
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I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter.
24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM
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I'm not trying to defend Gnosticism doctrinally, but...
24/09/2012 11:51:40 PM
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I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though.
25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM
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The Gnostic response would be:
25/09/2012 06:01:58 AM
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That just sounds like more conspiracy allegations based on desire rather than evidence.
25/09/2012 07:15:06 AM
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The issue of evidence for Gnosticism would make this thread unnecessarily long.
25/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition?
22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM
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Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago.
22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM
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Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well
22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM
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Let's not get started on Funk
22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM
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don't these people have anything better to do?
20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM
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Clearly not.
22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM
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