While likely infeasible, the only real matter with which I can think to address the root problem
Jragghen Send a noteboard - 18/09/2012 07:15:49 PM
...is something I'll say after I address a couple points in your post
/disclaimer - I'm not an economist by trade, although I did minor in it, with a focus on environmental economics and fiscal policy in third world countries. That being said, it's been a number of years, so I may be grasping at slightly incorrect terms here and there.
While this is true, there's something to be said about this being a temporary situation which will eventually work itself out with a lower equilibrium than we're accustomed to in the West, but for the general benefit of all. This is just one of the problems with economics in general - the "optimal solutions" often ignore the realities we have to face in terms of national security (we don't want to outsource our military manufacturing, for example). At any rate, going into the cheaper manufacturing jobs - why are those jobs so much cheaper? Aside from being willing to work for the less expensive rates, there's also much fewer restrictions in terms of workplace safety, etc in those countries, as well as fewer liability concerns for the company if (when) something does go wrong. So, as we live in a modern society of greater fluidity of capital, companies will move to these locations for their manufacturing. Over time, pressure will build in those countries as they grow more opulent, and they will undergo a similar human rights progression that we saw in the early 1900s in our factories, unions will form, and China will cease to be the ideal location - this is already starting to happen and we're seeing some companies leave China for other areas of Southeast Asia. The other factor which will work to even things out is transport costs (fuel) - as it gets prohibitively expensive to ship things long-distance, we'll see a return to locality of manufacturing from that.
Just want to address one point - American tax code is all wonky, and so while we've got "one of the highest corporate tax rates" ON PAPER, we actually have the second lowest EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate of any Western nation, due to subsidies, tax breaks, loopholes, etc. (See graph link at bottom, I don't have admin powers to be able to post links anymore )
Anyway, from an economic standpoint, having jobs outsourced is a good thing, and I don't just mean for a company's bottom line. The West has had such an unduly disproportionate amount of wealth that something had to give and start flowing back toward an equilibrium - this is what's happening now. What's going to happen next is increased demand as affluence spreads, which will mean more jobs across the board (technically, with automation that aspect might be mitigated), but more importantly, specialization - this is what markets are supposed to do. Even if one place (China, in this case) were to have a manufacturing advantage for every good there is, it is STILL not optimal economically for China to manufacture everything, but rather for proportions to work out where different areas of the world will specialize in specific types of products because of their respective comparative advantage on those goods. Once more, we already see this, and in the real world it can cause some problems 5% of HDD manufacturing capacity is in Thailand, which was impacted significantly by the floods there last year), but it's the direction which economics will push things.
Which is, of course, all well and good for numbers on a page, but ignores the people who are "left behind" in the transitional period. As for the solution, this is how we see things - this is the first of two steps in the automation process (first to the third world, then to predominantly robotic, both for agriculture and manufacturing). We as a society need to take a look at ourselves and see how we want to treat people when the second one comes around (decades from now, mind you, but it's coming) - we read fiction here, so I'm sure we've all been exposed to some form of either potential future society. So anyway, first off: recognition that this is something which ISN'T going to change and because we contain a modicum of humanity, maintain and enhance the existing social safety net for the people who will inevitably have a harder time finding work.
Secondly, as we won't be able to stop the fluidity of capital and the pushing of jobs to the third world entirely, rather what we need to do is to use fiscal policy to encourage more rapid adoption of human rights and environmental policies in the third world (while we still have the leverage to do so) to reduce their comparative advantage relative to us, which would allow for a greater percent of our population to be employed during the transition. Unfortunately, I can't think of any surefire way to do this beyond a tax on goods manufactured in countries which don't meet certain standards (for example, a tax on any goods manufactured in a country which allows child labor would be something which could probably get past Congress).
However, I don't think political or economic realities will allow this either. Wages have been stagnant since the late 1970s, and the increase in the cost of goods due to either the taxes themselves or due to the companies in question having to raise the prices due to increased cost of manufacturing to adhere to the policies would eviscerate what is left of the middle class. On the flip-side, the longer we wait, the worse the impact would be.
So....yeah. At the end of the day, the unemployment problem becomes the same problem that pretty much every other problem facing humanity can be boiled down to - it's not that there's not enough jobs for the people who want them...it's that there's too many people for the number of jobs which are actually needed.
/disclaimer - I'm not an economist by trade, although I did minor in it, with a focus on environmental economics and fiscal policy in third world countries. That being said, it's been a number of years, so I may be grasping at slightly incorrect terms here and there.
First, I try to get to the root of the problem. The main point that people gripe about is that there are so many jobs outsourced to foreign countries. What's the root cause of this? Companies exist for one reason: to make money. The main motivation of any company is to make as much profit as possible. One of the ways to do this is to keep costs as low as possible, i.e. keep labor costs as low as possible. Due to working conditions in some countries, companies have the option of outsourcing their work to these foreign workers who work for pennies on the dollar.
While this is true, there's something to be said about this being a temporary situation which will eventually work itself out with a lower equilibrium than we're accustomed to in the West, but for the general benefit of all. This is just one of the problems with economics in general - the "optimal solutions" often ignore the realities we have to face in terms of national security (we don't want to outsource our military manufacturing, for example). At any rate, going into the cheaper manufacturing jobs - why are those jobs so much cheaper? Aside from being willing to work for the less expensive rates, there's also much fewer restrictions in terms of workplace safety, etc in those countries, as well as fewer liability concerns for the company if (when) something does go wrong. So, as we live in a modern society of greater fluidity of capital, companies will move to these locations for their manufacturing. Over time, pressure will build in those countries as they grow more opulent, and they will undergo a similar human rights progression that we saw in the early 1900s in our factories, unions will form, and China will cease to be the ideal location - this is already starting to happen and we're seeing some companies leave China for other areas of Southeast Asia. The other factor which will work to even things out is transport costs (fuel) - as it gets prohibitively expensive to ship things long-distance, we'll see a return to locality of manufacturing from that.
So how do we bring jobs back to America? The left believes in more taxes and the right believes we need to lower taxes. America has the highest corporate tax rates of any developed country. Thus, companies try to use every legal angle possible to move their money overseas, where it's taxed at a much lower rate. Something seems to be wrong in America if companies are moving labor and money to other countries. How can we stop this? Do we cowtow to corporations? Do we become even more strict? What's the answer?
Just want to address one point - American tax code is all wonky, and so while we've got "one of the highest corporate tax rates" ON PAPER, we actually have the second lowest EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate of any Western nation, due to subsidies, tax breaks, loopholes, etc. (See graph link at bottom, I don't have admin powers to be able to post links anymore )
Anyway, from an economic standpoint, having jobs outsourced is a good thing, and I don't just mean for a company's bottom line. The West has had such an unduly disproportionate amount of wealth that something had to give and start flowing back toward an equilibrium - this is what's happening now. What's going to happen next is increased demand as affluence spreads, which will mean more jobs across the board (technically, with automation that aspect might be mitigated), but more importantly, specialization - this is what markets are supposed to do. Even if one place (China, in this case) were to have a manufacturing advantage for every good there is, it is STILL not optimal economically for China to manufacture everything, but rather for proportions to work out where different areas of the world will specialize in specific types of products because of their respective comparative advantage on those goods. Once more, we already see this, and in the real world it can cause some problems 5% of HDD manufacturing capacity is in Thailand, which was impacted significantly by the floods there last year), but it's the direction which economics will push things.
Which is, of course, all well and good for numbers on a page, but ignores the people who are "left behind" in the transitional period. As for the solution, this is how we see things - this is the first of two steps in the automation process (first to the third world, then to predominantly robotic, both for agriculture and manufacturing). We as a society need to take a look at ourselves and see how we want to treat people when the second one comes around (decades from now, mind you, but it's coming) - we read fiction here, so I'm sure we've all been exposed to some form of either potential future society. So anyway, first off: recognition that this is something which ISN'T going to change and because we contain a modicum of humanity, maintain and enhance the existing social safety net for the people who will inevitably have a harder time finding work.
Secondly, as we won't be able to stop the fluidity of capital and the pushing of jobs to the third world entirely, rather what we need to do is to use fiscal policy to encourage more rapid adoption of human rights and environmental policies in the third world (while we still have the leverage to do so) to reduce their comparative advantage relative to us, which would allow for a greater percent of our population to be employed during the transition. Unfortunately, I can't think of any surefire way to do this beyond a tax on goods manufactured in countries which don't meet certain standards (for example, a tax on any goods manufactured in a country which allows child labor would be something which could probably get past Congress).
However, I don't think political or economic realities will allow this either. Wages have been stagnant since the late 1970s, and the increase in the cost of goods due to either the taxes themselves or due to the companies in question having to raise the prices due to increased cost of manufacturing to adhere to the policies would eviscerate what is left of the middle class. On the flip-side, the longer we wait, the worse the impact would be.
So....yeah. At the end of the day, the unemployment problem becomes the same problem that pretty much every other problem facing humanity can be boiled down to - it's not that there's not enough jobs for the people who want them...it's that there's too many people for the number of jobs which are actually needed.
This message last edited by Jragghen on 18/09/2012 at 07:16:53 PM
How would you fix unemployment?
18/09/2012 05:43:17 PM
- 770 Views
Kill off every third unemployed person; that'll teach the lazy bastards. *NM*
18/09/2012 06:11:58 PM
- 213 Views
While likely infeasible, the only real matter with which I can think to address the root problem
18/09/2012 07:15:49 PM
- 875 Views
Repeal ObamaCare, for a start. But that's like taking a bucket of water out of the Titanic.
18/09/2012 08:54:42 PM
- 541 Views
The left does not believe higher corporate taxes create jobs; it believe they reduce federal debt.
18/09/2012 10:57:53 PM
- 637 Views
A reply to a single paragraph should result in a reply back of manageable length... right?
18/09/2012 11:30:02 PM
- 516 Views
Good luck with that (sorry Joel, but it is true )
18/09/2012 11:36:09 PM
- 545 Views
I do not think the first and fourth paragraphs of my response to him should count as two paragraphs.
18/09/2012 11:55:08 PM
- 610 Views
no,
19/09/2012 12:03:25 AM
- 579 Views
Bah; most respondents have noted the issue is complex, and many note different factors.
19/09/2012 12:17:47 AM
- 473 Views
Caring MORE about Western living standards=/=caring NOTHING about Third World ones.
18/09/2012 11:48:54 PM
- 572 Views
That much is true, yes.
19/09/2012 07:04:05 PM
- 574 Views
I simply do not see any benefits to ANY countrys populace, only Western multinational CEOs.
24/09/2012 04:45:19 AM
- 572 Views
Well, I tried. All anyone can do, right? *NM*
25/09/2012 07:07:20 PM
- 215 Views
Like I say, I am happy to review any data to back claims laissez-faire internationalism helps anyone
26/09/2012 04:27:32 AM
- 448 Views
Wait...is there something wrong about not caring about other countries?
19/09/2012 03:15:00 AM
- 518 Views
Put a bird on it! *NM*
18/09/2012 11:02:41 PM
- 313 Views
Or bring back conspicuous consumption by creating a companion class of workers.
18/09/2012 11:07:29 PM
- 479 Views
get rid of unemployment extensions so the lazy people go out and find jobs
25/09/2012 01:44:23 PM
- 553 Views