I recently read Stephen Ambrose's Band of Brothers, about a regiment from the 101st in WW2.
Legolas Send a noteboard - 04/09/2012 10:29:01 PM
There is a critical difference between Iraq or Afghanistan and Vietnam: South Vietnam was a sovereign state, not a conquered one. The kind of martial law applied in the former Axis states, "Total Occupation," if you like, would have been impractical in South Vietnam unless we wanted to turn the whole country into Vietcong (though the South Vietnam was adept at doing that unassisted,) and nominally illegal. With the manpower to put soldiers on literally every street corner AND justification to regard every resident as hostile until proven otherwise Iraq, Afghanistan and South Vietnam could be treated just like the conquered Axis powers.
It's an interesting book in general, but sounds like you need to read it among other reasons (the story of the rampage of the 101st in Berchtesgaden is capital) to make clear the vast difference between the occupied German population right after WW2 (or even during the last stages of the war), and the Iraqi and Afghani populations after the wars there. According to Ambrose, the soldiers he's writing about ranked the German civilians as their second favourite nationality to interact with, behind the enthusiastically welcoming Dutch but ahead of the British, French and Belgians - the comfortable German homes that reminded them of their American homes didn't hurt, but they liked the people too.
Some of the large German cities had taken horrific damage, yes, but millions of Germans in smaller cities or out in rural areas, or even in larger cities that got lucky, survived WW2 with really quite limited discomfort - better off than many in the countries they had conquered, for sure. Their society, their institutions, their economic fundamentals - all intact to a considerable degree, and when they weren't, the memories of how it used to work were not so remote that they couldn't rebuild them easily enough, as soon as they found the money for it - which came slowly, and then faster with the Marshall plan. Prior to the Nazi coup d'etat, they had been a democracy, of sorts at least, and that was only 12 years before - not that hard to reinstate it.
And then of course it should be pointed out that they had very little in the way of sectarian or inter-ethnic strife or tension, since those members of the only meaningful minority in pre-war Germany who hadn't fled had mostly been exterminated. The only vaguely related problem they had was the large amount of displaced Germans from Silesia who needed to be resettled in the rest of Germany.
At least until the revelations of German concentration camps (Japans remain largely ignored even now,) Axis populations felt no more culpability for war than Afghans do. Hitler and Goebbels spent over a decade convincing Germans military expansion was just, and that the only "war guilt" lay with German politicians who "betrayed" the nation in the Great War. Despite many pronouncements, Japan has STILL accepted little responsibility for causing WWII, only regret for doing awful things in a stressful time (similar to Anders Breiviks unapologetic apology/rationalization, and no more convincing.) Convincing defeated Axis populations responsibility took years of intense Allied efforts probably unnecessary in Afghanistan and Iraq, whose people are keenly aware of the brutality and militance of their erstwhile leaders.
One does wonder why Afghans or Iraqis should feel culpability for wars they didn't start themselves... anyway, though, you could indeed make an argument that it took some time before the Germans really started feeling guilty for the war, and if not for the Holocaust they probably never would have. In my view it was much more about them coming out of the war with much of their civil society and their economic fabric intact, and knowing where to go and what to do. Afghanistan and Iraq post-war were in situations they'd never been in before, with not much in the way of institutions either political or economic to build on, and with enormous sectarian or tribal problems.
I think you probably would agree with that last bit - the part where you're kidding yourself is the part where you seem to think you've done nation-building and mass indoctrination before, in Germany and Japan. You really haven't, nothing like the kind of thing that would be needed in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Biden claims Romney wants war with Syria and Iran.
02/09/2012 10:48:24 PM
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Meh. Sounds like a non-story. But my thoughts, for what they're worth.
02/09/2012 11:05:52 PM
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Biden should be busy preparing to debate Ryan so he is not shredded, instead of saying stupid things
02/09/2012 11:52:35 PM
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We should introduce a new military doctrine
03/09/2012 02:46:33 AM
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I still think the post-war Axis powers the best model, but that requires equivalent manpower.
03/09/2012 03:57:12 AM
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It's a terrible model.
03/09/2012 11:42:36 PM
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Re: It's a terrible model.
04/09/2012 04:09:21 AM
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I recently read Stephen Ambrose's Band of Brothers, about a regiment from the 101st in WW2.
04/09/2012 10:29:01 PM
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wars they didn't start themselves? how do you figure that?
04/09/2012 10:45:07 PM
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We cannot hold all Afghanistan/Iraq accountable for governments against which they were powerless.
04/09/2012 11:54:46 PM
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so what? Governments habe always been who goes to war
05/09/2012 02:55:25 AM
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True, but we cannot hold people responsible for actions of their undemocratic governments.
05/09/2012 03:19:20 AM
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well thanks to the US they now have democratcily elected governments and can be held accountable *NM*
05/09/2012 02:30:41 PM
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Democratically elected? We will be propping it up with the US Army for at least two more years.
05/09/2012 07:19:21 PM
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being propped up by the US military doesn't make it not a democracy
05/09/2012 07:29:42 PM
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Political power that comes out of the barrel of a gun precludes democracy.
05/09/2012 09:01:40 PM
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it was always a lost cost and all governments are backed up by the barrel of a gun
05/09/2012 09:49:51 PM
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No more so than Iraq, but at least there was a threat to America to fight in Afghanistan.
23/09/2012 04:51:14 AM
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I said start. I quite agree with you about the things that went on after the wars themselves ended.
05/09/2012 08:51:58 PM
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shooting at our aircraft is none hostile?
05/09/2012 10:06:07 PM
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It is very difficult to reconcile this post with Toms.
04/09/2012 11:50:06 PM
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Hey, remember when Bush invaded Iraq? For no reason at all, it turned out?
03/09/2012 01:56:49 AM
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Realistically, I don't think Romney would do MUCH different. But that little bit...
03/09/2012 02:19:14 AM
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After all the moeny he took from Sheldon Adelson he HAS to attack Iran. Adelson will foot the bill. *NM*
03/09/2012 05:19:27 AM
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I don't think Romney is that interested in starting a war with anyone
04/09/2012 02:39:14 PM
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