For clarity: I do see that happening, but I don't limit my intake to liberal media, though I obviously don't go to the extent that you do to speak with conservatives. And when I say I feel "belittled," I am really just saying that I don't like the fairly strong trend against some things I hold to be important (gay marriage, women's rights, etc). I am not claiming there are no republicans who take these things seriously, or even feel how I feel.



I am not anti-life; I do not like the idea of killing anything or anyone, but when you take away the legal option, you are not taking away the choice. Most often, you are taking away the most readily available (and affordable) places women go for the information and help you say you want them to have. Imo, the choice and the centers should remain open and available, or you're never getting your hands on those women who most need to be supported (or potentially influenced, iyo).

When I was recently having this discussion with a friend, I did quite a bit of reading in medical journals, normal media articles, etc. I don't know whether you'll accept something from the Guttmacher Institute, but that is one location that I've found the information laid out quite simply. See link.



If it's a murder, it shouldn't be legal. Since that isn't currently the judgment, legislating anywhere in the middle is trying to force that moral load onto women, and I do not think that is fair or appropriate (other than regarding waiting too long, at which point most definitely do believe it is a baby with rights).

A large part of where we differ is that I do not think most people are making this choice in any more haste than needed (or not). Of course, some are, and I will not claim that every woman would do exactly what she thought she would before the situation arose, but I will stand by my assertion that most have thought about it to a sufficient degree before going through it. From the moment it is even a thought in their minds, they are doing nothing but thinking about it. I will not pull the "I have ovaries, so I'm right" card, because I think that is bull-honkey, but I know that as a human, when something major comes up in my life, I have usually at least thought about it previously, have some instincts about it, and think about nothing else until I make my decision. I do not think a woman should be penalized for knowing her mind and wanting to deal with the situation as quickly as possible. I can say that I know that if I decided to have an abortion, I would want it done NOW. Mostly because of when nerve cells develop in fetuses.


And yet, many feel it is an intensely personal choice. They should not be made to speak to someone if they do not want to. I would not want to, and, knowing my personality, I would not react well to being forced to by law. I maintain that if it is legal, the govt doesn't have the right to make demands regarding an individual's feelings.


I cannot even claim that I know I don't want a child (even though I feel fairly certain at this moment), but I do think that most are aware of the facts that help them decide - income, support, shelter, significant other, etc. At that point, there will be certain women who feel very strongly either way, and there will be some who have no idea ... I just can't believe they are not spending an inordinate amount of time thinking about it and weighing the options. I suppose that could be me not being able to get out of my own shoes, because I know I think too much. But based on my societal experiences, I am not sure you can convince me that I'm wrong.

How quickly do you think this happens for most people? From thinking it's an option, getting to the store, taking a test (knowing friends who've gone through this, I can say with some certainty that it is likely several tests are taken before one feels certain), making an appointment, getting to the location, many states have a 24 hour waiting period, going back to the location and then finally going through the procedure? How many women are doing that in less than a week? I would like to see that stat, because we seem to disagree on how many women decide and rush into it that quickly. Besides (and I need to check the real numbers on this), I have read that many physicians won't do the procedure until a few weeks later, for fear that they may not get all the pregnancy tissue and/or that the pregnancy may not be in the womb at all (ectopic). That's already 4 or 5 weeks in. If we assume that a woman has sex the very first day after the end of her cycle, we've got about 28 days before she expects the next one, she may not find out about this until that 4-5 week period has passed, but if we call that the most extreme case and assume that most pregnancies happen when we are at our most fertile (14 days in or so), that extends that even longer.

If you're trying to make a case against a day after pill, I will not agree with you there. I do believe that one is ending the process by which a human is created, because that IS what is happening; however, I do not believe that is the murder of a baby. Sorry, but I definitely do see a difference between a blastocyst/zygote and a baby.


I'm not insulted. I can only go based on my own feelings and those of several close friends who have gone through this. There are three I know have undergone the procedure, and each says that even though the actual decision was (and is) painful, they would not have taken it back. Whether that is rationalization or how they truly feel, I simply do not believe that most people rush into this so willy-nilly as you think. Or that the govt has the right to force them into anything more than the mandatory 24hr delay most states have in place.


Ah, well, I do find this slightly insulting. I know I didn't give much helpful information there, and that it is probably misleading because I was trying not to get involved in this very conversation we are having. I was raised by Catholic democrats, so I am fairly aware of the breakdown, thank you.

I did not say that I sop up my news only from liberal sites and/or papers. To some degree, yes, that is where my news comes from, but I also make a point not to read much that comes only from a specific party - I head for the middle, and read several different sites to try to get it. I also spend quite a bit of time skimming crap articles for the actual studies and support they use to write said articles, so that I can skip to the real stuff. Saying that the only way I could have come up with my feelings is by missing all the real information is not true, and is kinda rude. I would prefer not to be dismissed that way - if I only went based on what I saw in the mainstream media, I would be more concerned about birth control, and I would be agreeing with Jens, hands down. We would not be able to have this conversation.