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Re: I'm not surprised there were missing incidents Isaac Send a noteboard - 31/07/2012 11:56:05 PM
In my original reply there's a brief bit of me discussing the US averaging 2 or 3 a year and how that compared up with other countries with smaller population like Norway, and then general stream of crime per capita, but that was the only list I could find... I did encounter your Rampage Killings list when try to relocate the one I'd quoted but it does not paste properly into Excel and individually counting them all and comparing wasn't something I was in the mood for. You'll also note the list of citations is thin and doesn't include - that I saw - any citation of some formal table or research. It may or may not be accurate, but I'm choosing to assume that the list is light on all fronts, and thus is missing non-US incidents as well, and proportionally. The list you attached is 'Americas' so it's hard to compare to Europe, but I will note that the 'Americas' list was 116 entries and Europe's was 99, and that the Americas have 900 million people in them. True, most of the rampages listed are in the US but I'd distrust data from almost anywhere south of the Rio Grande much as I would East of Berlin. My personal guess is the US does have more of these, but I think it's within some single to double digit percentage rather than some order of magnitude thing like 10x.

2 or 3 per year does seem more likely, both based on my personal impression and on the numbers that quick Wikipedia search yielded.


That's been the general 'rule of thumb' since 'going postal' stopped referring to means of shipping. I generally view it as about 1 mass attack per million people per lifetime, less but close enough conceptually, e.g. lower than your odds of being struck by lightning, which hits abut 400 people a year in the US and kills about 40 of them.

And yeah, people's general perception is warped by the simple fact of the US having so many more inhabitants - many European countries have just one notable mass shooting in recent history, or none, but then they may only have 5% of the American population or less. There's also a perception that the shootings, particularly those in schools, are "imported" from the US, fall-out from Columbine and all, which I suppose further distorts the impression about the numbers. Of course, tons of things are "imported" from the US to Europe that way, and it's only the bad ones that are generally acknowledged as such, as one might expect. Your guess sounds plausible enough to me.


Well pointing the finger at other countries or cultures is a very common practice, so too is examining at other countries successes to point fingers at an incumbent. That comparisons beyond the most broad strokes is an exercise in absurdity never matters. The idea that the US might be exporting gun violence is hardly surprising but sounds like cheap political theater to me. I'd hardly be surprised if prior incidents caused copy cats or inspiration but blaming the US for that would seems as logical as blaming Japan if someone nerve-gassed a bus, or dropped a nuke on a city for that matter.

As Nate pointed out, the non-spree murders would be a better point to focus on - the US having a homicide rate of multiple times that of most European countries, much of it with guns. But whether tighter gun control would appreciably bring down that homicide rate, is obviously a different question. You could avoid certain categories of homicides, I do think, like that shooting in Florida earlier this year - take the gun out of the equation and nobody dies there. Some other categories, not so much, and as pro-gun folks keep pointing out, a gun in the hands of the right person can occasionally save lives as well.


The problem with Nate's suggestion is that we rack up more murders every day than these spree killers do that day, most of the time they don't even account for half that day's murders. When we move outside of these rampage/spree types though the focus on assault rifles becomes fairly redundant. Pistols, knives, etc become just as if not more effective from a practical standpoint. 'Intentional Homicide' begin what I'd view as the real matter of note, in that vein, and the US has a current one of 4.7, as incidents per 100,000 people. On that measurement we fall into the lower-middle category, of 2-5, as opposed to the general six categories, less than 1, 1-2, 5-10, 10-20, and 20+, and they don't even try to keep data on almost all of Africa or some of the more obvious places. Here's the chart I'm citing and a color map More than half of Latin America is in the 20+ zone and almost all the remainder in the 2nd, 10-20, category. I don't accept the habit of tending to act as though Western Europe and the US are the lone bastions of wealth and civilization implied when people handwave away all those areas as somehow not counting. It doesn't explain why some countries like the Bahamas, which reasonably parallel European and American GDP/cap, have higher murder rates than the US while Poland, with a lower GDP/cap then the Bahamas, has a lower murder rate on par or lower than much of Western Europe.

I think, as a whole, and going back to what's talked of above, we tend to come up against trends where you can see patterns but always with an outlier or two, and people pick the outlier to discard to fit their preexisting narrative, but in a sample that includes around a hundred 'entities', examining a specific sample of ten or twelve nations where you've discarded on or two really makes comparisons a mostly futile game, though regrettably a very necessary one since not only will people do it anyway but because we really do need to keep our tabs on fellow countries or regions or metro areas to see what is and isn't working and if it might be adapted locally. A total ban on assault rifles could, conceivably, lower these spree killings but a total absence of them wouldn't even drop the US homicide rate by a single percentage point. We just don't have 140 or so of these deaths a year but we do have around 14,000 intentional homicides, and while many do involve guns, few really hinge on powerful ones and most don't even hinge on a gun themself. It's like suicide, you don't need a gun, and very few won't occur from an absence. Now individual murders of the mugging sort? Quite probably but almost all muggers are repeat offenders not allowed to buy guns or get conceal carry anyway.

Well, repeating stuff you already know I'm sure by now, my pardon. I just don't see a spree killing as a logical diving board for any debate that doesn't hinge specifically around things that would have had a realistic probability of preventing that specific incident. And I think people are using it that way
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Do you have strong feelings/opinions about gun control? - 25/07/2012 05:48:56 AM 1327 Views
Kind of? - 25/07/2012 05:59:39 AM 770 Views
Agreed - 25/07/2012 06:20:44 AM 617 Views
Re: Agreed - 25/07/2012 06:29:16 AM 757 Views
A lot of people are uncomfortable about homsexuality. Let's ban that too. - 25/07/2012 09:26:46 PM 744 Views
Feisty. - 25/07/2012 09:54:31 PM 848 Views
I'm pro-guns, but I don't think I have strong feelings about anything - 25/07/2012 07:36:31 AM 686 Views
I am mostly in agreement with you. - 26/07/2012 02:11:56 AM 560 Views
Fully automatic weapons are already forbidden, aren't they? - 27/07/2012 02:19:57 AM 681 Views
Pretty strong (as someone born, raised and living outside the US) - 25/07/2012 11:23:52 AM 758 Views
I'm okay with guns in very limited circumstances. - 25/07/2012 11:41:13 AM 816 Views
Re: I'm okay with guns in very limited circumstances. - 25/07/2012 01:21:36 PM 697 Views
Inevitable thread, but mostly I feel people enters this debate without knowing enough about guns - 25/07/2012 02:05:12 PM 894 Views
I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry. - 25/07/2012 02:47:05 PM 795 Views
Re: I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry. - 25/07/2012 03:00:07 PM 697 Views
Re: - 25/07/2012 03:30:44 PM 743 Views
Okay, that makes no sense - 25/07/2012 04:32:28 PM 747 Views
Re: Re: - 25/07/2012 05:50:23 PM 770 Views
Re: I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry. - 25/07/2012 10:48:46 PM 794 Views
I understand, but you probably should if time permits - 25/07/2012 03:49:49 PM 901 Views
It is unlikely to, for a while. - 25/07/2012 10:37:30 PM 784 Views
Oh, but you have time to read Cannoli though - 26/07/2012 01:10:50 AM 719 Views
... his was shorter? - 26/07/2012 02:41:48 PM 635 Views
Yeah but mine had diagrams! - 26/07/2012 03:46:49 PM 718 Views
I do sometimes need pictures. - 26/07/2012 04:55:17 PM 582 Views
Re: I do sometimes need pictures. - 26/07/2012 04:57:57 PM 716 Views
*NM* - 26/07/2012 05:23:11 PM 362 Views
Where exactly did you get those numbers? - 27/07/2012 07:23:31 PM 733 Views
He's right as far as numbers go. - 27/07/2012 08:08:02 PM 774 Views
Wikipedia, the unchallenged source for acurate and complete citation - 27/07/2012 08:19:40 PM 798 Views
Sorry, I totally forgot about this post, hadn't noticed your replies. - 31/07/2012 07:42:43 PM 708 Views
I'm not surprised there were missing incidents - 31/07/2012 08:18:04 PM 689 Views
Re: I'm not surprised there were missing incidents - 31/07/2012 09:14:34 PM 670 Views
Re: I'm not surprised there were missing incidents - 31/07/2012 11:56:05 PM 831 Views
Norway? Scotland? - 25/07/2012 09:31:49 PM 681 Views
You can keep this up - 25/07/2012 09:56:28 PM 659 Views
Hi, Cannoli. - 25/07/2012 10:30:56 PM 691 Views
well it could have at least double posted the edited version - 26/07/2012 10:40:32 PM 635 Views
Most of those numbers come from inner city violence - 26/07/2012 10:40:34 PM 844 Views
Re: Hi, Cannoli. - 09/08/2012 09:07:03 PM 743 Views
The UK tightened gun laws after the Dunblane massacre. - 25/07/2012 10:58:08 PM 615 Views
I have no problem with guns, but I agree that assault weapons shouldn't be legal for ordinary people - 25/07/2012 02:56:38 PM 742 Views
The problem with banning assualt weapons is the defention is mostly cosmetic - 25/07/2012 05:29:35 PM 649 Views
Bullshit - 26/07/2012 01:52:59 PM 792 Views
I call Bullshit on your Bullshit - 26/07/2012 02:59:09 PM 703 Views
Or - 26/07/2012 03:20:12 PM 619 Views
There a lot of us with military training and some were in that theater - 26/07/2012 03:43:52 PM 619 Views
HE was talking about normal people. - 26/07/2012 04:53:16 PM 729 Views
I think we are talking past each other - 26/07/2012 05:55:48 PM 688 Views
Possibly. We do do that. - 26/07/2012 06:52:58 PM 722 Views
In addition to random thoughts's points... - 26/07/2012 03:10:56 PM 635 Views
You're partially right but mostly wrong - 26/07/2012 05:46:27 PM 707 Views
Correct me if I'm wrong.... - 25/07/2012 03:53:07 PM 860 Views
You're wrong - 25/07/2012 04:37:22 PM 641 Views
Yes. - 25/07/2012 05:09:36 PM 644 Views
Yes and I am glad it's not my problem. - 25/07/2012 06:41:56 PM 771 Views
Dude, your burglary argument makes no sense - 25/07/2012 11:09:37 PM 693 Views
It makes lots of sense, actually. - 25/07/2012 11:55:59 PM 672 Views
They don't bring guns here. Huh. *NM* - 26/07/2012 12:59:15 AM 335 Views
they don't typically bring guns here either - 26/07/2012 02:01:14 AM 763 Views
That's how I understand it too but I'm dubious, many criminals are dumber than a bag of hammers - 26/07/2012 02:22:18 AM 651 Views
Ha! - 26/07/2012 12:07:20 PM 541 Views
One of my Marine friends became a Fort Worth cop when he got out - 26/07/2012 03:11:12 PM 740 Views
You get some wild stories - 26/07/2012 06:09:52 PM 744 Views
Like I've always said, you can't un-invent the gun - 25/07/2012 11:05:22 PM 643 Views
Agreed. It's really a lot like health care, in a way. - 26/07/2012 12:07:20 AM 753 Views
Sure, but you can legislate certain excessive firearms. - 26/07/2012 09:41:12 PM 720 Views
assault rifles are banned - 26/07/2012 10:51:28 PM 676 Views
Touchy - 28/07/2012 04:33:46 AM 854 Views

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