but, if I get it, you're saying that banning guns won't work well because people with some money and time can just make them anyway? I'm asking, just to make sure I got enough to understand. And if that's correct, why aren't people in other countries making them up and going on shooting sprees?
That is regrettably the short form, the one everyone uses for either for support or to point at. Lacking the specifics your question makes total sense. But the answer is easy... you don't make a shovel when you can buy one, and people in other countries do go on shooting sprees, like that Breivik fellow. One shooting spree versus maybe two a year here, but we outnumber Norway 60:1, hence one incident in thirty years equates to two a year here.... except we haven't had two or three a year, we've had less than one a year, 20 in 30 years, a frequency of 1 per 1.5 years or 1 per 50 year per 10 million people. Sweden, population about 10 million, had one 18 years ago, thus has a higher rate of spree killing than the US, France, population a quarter of ours, has had 3 in the last 20 years, the equivalent of the US having 18 spree killing in 30 years, 90% of ours. The UK had 5 in about 25 years. The Netherlands had one last year. Many countries we have no data on, or unreliable data, but what we can see of US-parallel culture and wealth with gun controls laws is no significant increase or decrease in spree killings. Since the Uiryeong massacre of 1982, 57 dead in S. Korea by a disgruntled cop (kinda hard to keep weapons from them) you've had 20 shooting sprees in the US, and 18 in Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and the United Kingdom... same time, nearly the same population, not sure who has more total there. People play games with the data, both sides, you can cherry pick total deaths or by weapon or etc and have gun laws helping or show the opposite, but the data seems to come up as roughly even. Craziness occurs everywhere and black markets or legal stores make it easier to acquire than home manufacture. Same as LSD or meth, you can make them, easier to buy them, but if you really want one, you will get one.
That is actually interesting to read, thank you.
I don't do the "guns are evil" thing, but I do know they can kill a heck of a lot better than knives or sticks. If I hear "guns don't kill people blahblah" one more time, I'll scream. Yes, you're right, because that's all we're saying. Of course. ARRRGH! (not aiming this at you, clearly, just being annoyed in general)
But I never said that, and not to be picky, but you didn't read my post, which again had to do with auto/semi weapons and ammunition capacity. Guns don't kill people, people kill people and guns are very good ways of aiding in that task. People repeat these phrases till they lose all meaning, I agree, but it's a true statement. It is the insane or criminal mind that commits murder, and their effectiveness will be based on luck, planning, resources, and determination. Remove or limit any leg of that table and you hinder the ability to kill. But we can't do anything about luck, or planning, or determination. But we want to stop killings, so we look at resources, because it's the only one we can touch. Unfortunately some of the means for doing that which seem logical - like banning high capacity mags - really aren't. I oppose virtually gun restrictions but if people want them, they should pick ones that achieve maximum effect with minimum restriction of freedom.
I know you never said that (I did skim), which is why I pointed out that I was not addressing you with that angst. But, I see that you are now agreeing with it, and I simply do not have any patience for it. It might be factually true, because yes, a gun (generally) has to have been fired by a human hand, but calling it a "resource" when the level of carnage he was going for would have been harder to achieve without guns is at least a little disingenuous. I don't mind if we disagree on this, but I feel pretty strongly about my hate for that phrase. I don't disagree that you have made a point about the effect of different restrictions, etc.
Do you have strong feelings/opinions about gun control?
25/07/2012 05:48:56 AM
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Kind of?
25/07/2012 05:59:39 AM
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Agreed
25/07/2012 06:20:44 AM
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Re: Agreed
25/07/2012 06:29:16 AM
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A lot of people are uncomfortable about homsexuality. Let's ban that too.
25/07/2012 09:26:46 PM
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I'm pro-guns, but I don't think I have strong feelings about anything
25/07/2012 07:36:31 AM
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Pretty strong (as someone born, raised and living outside the US)
25/07/2012 11:23:52 AM
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Inevitable thread, but mostly I feel people enters this debate without knowing enough about guns
25/07/2012 02:05:12 PM
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I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry.
25/07/2012 02:47:05 PM
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Re: I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry.
25/07/2012 03:00:07 PM
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Re:
25/07/2012 03:30:44 PM
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My dad's gun were stolen and the police said they didn't need to even take fingerprints
25/07/2012 06:58:36 PM
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I understand, but you probably should if time permits
25/07/2012 03:49:49 PM
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It is unlikely to, for a while.
25/07/2012 10:37:30 PM
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Oh, but you have time to read Cannoli though
26/07/2012 01:10:50 AM
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... his was shorter?
26/07/2012 02:41:48 PM
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Yeah but mine had diagrams!
26/07/2012 03:46:49 PM
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I do sometimes need pictures.
26/07/2012 04:55:17 PM
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Where exactly did you get those numbers?
27/07/2012 07:23:31 PM
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Wikipedia, the unchallenged source for acurate and complete citation
27/07/2012 08:19:40 PM
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Sorry, I totally forgot about this post, hadn't noticed your replies.
31/07/2012 07:42:43 PM
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I'm not surprised there were missing incidents
31/07/2012 08:18:04 PM
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Norway? Scotland?
25/07/2012 09:31:49 PM
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And yet, the people who do these things tend to be more respectful of guns
25/07/2012 03:44:31 PM
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Well working with dangeorus items tends to lead to respect and caution or a Darwin Award
25/07/2012 04:52:13 PM
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I have no problem with guns, but I agree that assault weapons shouldn't be legal for ordinary people
25/07/2012 02:56:38 PM
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Re: guns
25/07/2012 03:07:30 PM
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what is the basis for your argument that people would have panicked and forgotten their guns?
25/07/2012 04:45:46 PM
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My basis is that people are people - subject to panic, confusion, and fear. *NM*
25/07/2012 05:46:58 PM
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Most people who regularly carry weapons reach for them when spooked, in my experience
25/07/2012 06:14:57 PM
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Re: Most people who regularly carry weapons reach for them when spooked, in my experience
25/07/2012 06:45:02 PM
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Putting your hand on something is a little different then shooting someone
25/07/2012 08:13:59 PM
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The problem with banning assualt weapons is the defention is mostly cosmetic
25/07/2012 05:29:35 PM
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Bullshit
26/07/2012 01:52:59 PM
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I call Bullshit on your Bullshit
26/07/2012 02:59:09 PM
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Or
26/07/2012 03:20:12 PM
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There a lot of us with military training and some were in that theater
26/07/2012 03:43:52 PM
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HE was talking about normal people.
26/07/2012 04:53:16 PM
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i have pretty strong feelings that they should be better regulated than they currently are
25/07/2012 03:18:10 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong....
25/07/2012 03:53:07 PM
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I believe it was the ammunition he bought in large amounts online, not the guns themselves.
25/07/2012 07:22:31 PM
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Yes and I am glad it's not my problem.
25/07/2012 06:41:56 PM
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Well, you're missing the flaw in your reasoning...probably because you're appallingly ignorant
25/07/2012 09:19:18 PM
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Come back when you can discuss something without attacking someone.
26/07/2012 12:58:47 AM
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Dude, your burglary argument makes no sense
25/07/2012 11:09:37 PM
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They don't bring guns here. Huh. *NM*
26/07/2012 12:59:15 AM
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they don't typically bring guns here either
26/07/2012 02:01:14 AM
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That's how I understand it too but I'm dubious, many criminals are dumber than a bag of hammers
26/07/2012 02:22:18 AM
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Like I've always said, you can't un-invent the gun
25/07/2012 11:05:22 PM
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the argument of if America should have a lot guns is a long over
26/07/2012 03:29:50 PM
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See, there's another one of those BS stats tricks, 'family members' includes suicides and murder
26/07/2012 06:47:54 PM
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Sure, but you can legislate certain excessive firearms.
26/07/2012 09:41:12 PM
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assault rifles are banned
26/07/2012 10:51:28 PM
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I know the distinction. That's why I want a more clearly defined term for "assault weapon."
27/07/2012 09:46:11 AM
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Then stay away from the hyperbole because an Uzi is a sub machinegun so it is banned
27/07/2012 01:48:50 PM
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