Inevitable thread, but mostly I feel people enters this debate without knowing enough about guns
Isaac Send a noteboard - 25/07/2012 02:05:12 PM
If one wants to enter this aspect of the debate one should do so 'armed' as it were, and most people discussing this 100-rd capacity, as well as semi vs auto vs revolver or shotgun are not. I used to teach people how to fix guns and it always amazed me how even a great many of the fairly experienced troopers treated their weapon like people tend to treat a lot of mechanical or electronic objects, complex and arcane things not to be screwed with except maybe by rote. In reality guns are stupid simple, I'm not much of a gearhead and I could assemble a functional 'heavy' machinegun with equipment available in a hardware store and the tools lying around at home, though its accuracy and durability would be marginal.
Fair warning, I'm going to go into explanation of gun function here, though I'll avoid technical jingo as much as possible
And this is the funny thing about guns. The ones people think of as especially large and dangerous are the big clunky ones with the simplest function. Precious little separates an automatic weapon from a stapler, engine piston, or potato gun in conceptual design. The same principals apply. Other than some clever improvements that once discovered were 'Oh duhs' and a few chemical and metallurgic tricks that actually aren't in most firearms anyway, the field is stagnant. The M2 Browning machinegun has been the workhorse of the Army and lots of other armies for the better part of a century and the ones in most unit armories are older than the soldier's parents, you just switch out warn out parts, mostly barrel and bolts pieces, and I don't doubt our own kids will still be using them. They are incredibly simple.
Assault rifles aren't, they are pretty complex. They are made complex not by being compact but by being non-automatic. Essentially it is the 'closed bolt' design - the thing that makes them inferior as fully automatic weapons - which is the main source of complexity. Further complexity is 'burst fire', where one trigger pull fires a set number of rounds. Converting a semiautomatic with no built in auto to an auto is not the easiest thing in the world but principally involves removing things, and I could sit anybody down in a halfway decently equipped homework workshop and walk them through a conversion. So there is a false premise that bigger is better, ironic in this age of electronics, that screws up the debate. A pistol can be made fully automatic, a 'machine pistol', and you don't see these much because they are terribly stupid weapons... unless you are simply trying to unload ammunition into a crowd. Since in military conflict the enemy generally does not cheerfully bunch together by the dozen ten feet away from you, nobody manufactures many of these. Though you can build one at home.
So that brings us back to this so-called '100 round capacity' and how dumb attempting to regulate it is. Especially if it is a belt-fed weapon. In a belt fed automatic weapon the bullets are tied together, the originals just used canvas cloth for the purpose, modern ones use little 'disintegrating' links that just fall off the casing when the reload occurs. Very simple, though if not done well you can get a lot of jams, same concept of why you buy a shovel or axe rather than building one of your own, industry can do it better and cheaper. Banning shovel manufacture won't eliminate the shovel. But a 'drum' where belt ammo is concerned, is simply a container, built fairly sturdy though it can be a canvas bag, that attaches to the weapon and has the belt inside it, where it can't have all 100 or 200 or more rounds hanging there adding their weight. You could achieve similar results by holding the belt near and level to the gun... which look cool but is retarded, or by hanging a lady's purse full of ammo just under the thing. They are not complex, the only reason they are built on the sturdy and expensive side compared to, say, a box for cereal, is because people tend to accidentally smack their gun around and drums and magazines tend to take a lot of abuse. So banning '100 round drums' is like banning tin cans, you can still use a mason jar or ceramics to achieve decent canned goods, and if you're planning to eat the food the same day or next, it's pretty redundant. A soldier will be slogging around with a weapons for weeks between firing, bumping into stuff and damaging the drum or magazine, and sturdy improvements are relatively cheap, thus we have them. Same applies for the linkage itself, almost anything will do the job, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable using thread or yarn, you'd need to play with it a bit to find a decent setup, but they were originally cloth and they've played around with platic and resin ones, no difficulty getting them to function but getting them to be 'significantly better' is an issue, our presumed rogue nutjob doesn't need better or even equal. I don't know that I'd put much faith in an ammobelt made of tied yarn and loaded into a cardboard box but it could work, and fabricating your own sturdy one of military grade wouldn't be complex, time consuming, or require special items we could track, even a standard disintegrating metallic belt, strip of metal and some hand tools.
Now, that's belt ammo, the mainstay of open bolt automatic weapons. Semi-automatics favor the magazine, no belt, and the closed bolt (the more complex one). Here after the bullet is fired the bolt bounces back from the firing and hits a spring, ejects the spent casing then comes forward on the spring recoil bringing another round up from the magazine, which also has a spring in it. There are many ways to build the design making it a complex subject but a conceptually easy one, each method is very simple itself. Manufacturing one at home is trickier than a belt fed one, but then the hardest part of forging a gun from scratch is making a decent barrel anyway, if you don't give a damn about accuracy or lost efficiency you really could just use a sturdy metal pipe.
So, magazine capacity. There are three limiting factor on this. First, practicality. Changing out a magazine is a speed process with practice. That practice is best done while moving and trying to do it at weird angles but you could practice to your heart's content in your own apartment. Most people would be able to switch magazines in a few seconds with even an hour or so of practice, getting good enough that you can do it while jogging or crouched or lying down with speed and no conscious thought takes more, but brings us to the other part of practicality... a large magazine is a large rigid object that can bang into things, get in the way, and doesn't store well in pockets. A two foot long magazine would store a lot of ammo but would be a bitch to operate. More you can't make arbitrarily long reliable objects deriving their mechanical forces from a spring.
Ways around this. Double column magazines are fairly practical, literally just a magazine with two columns of bullets or the casket design. And finally the drum. Unlike a belt drum which is just a box or bag for bullets, a drum magazine which requires slight more technology then a box with a metal or platic plate and a spring under it, but again stuff that seriously predates electronic devices and qualify as 'oh duh' technology like the paper clip or stapler, once someone shows you one, you slap your forehead and can't believe you didn't think of it. Single column mags are the most widespread because they are cheap, simple, most reliable and because switching out a magazine is quick. Also lower capacity is generally thought to make soldiers aim more, which is debatable.
I attach those little photos because I want to emphasize that even a a magazine is pretty simplistic and can be made at home. You can't pan springs, and you could make the plate and magazine body out of plastic, wood, whatever, anything fairly rigid. Now, taking existing magazines to increase their capacity is another story. Also not to be confused with taping magazines together 'jungle style'. Connecting two magazines together (I don't know the term beyond 'idiot style' ) is when you remove the base plate of one magazine and connect it to another... nobody does that unless theirs some law limiting normal magazine capacity because it's not the best way to do it, and just duct taping them together isn't very effective. There are clamp and other apparatus that make that more viable and thus would let you walk around carrying magazines with say, 10 rd capacity, then in 30 or 40 seconds assemble two or three or more of them together, some magazines are designed with this in mind, really no way you can ban 'decent engineering' so another thing most of us 'gun nuts' tend to laugh at.
Anyway, more than anyone probably wanted to know but I felt this was a better reply than repeating talking points everyone's heard a hundred times. If you've got a few thousand dollars lying around and have some mechanical aptitude, you can manufacture your own machine gun, including the bullets, without ever ordering anything gun related or any suspicious quantities of anything. You can't ban chemistry or engineering, and when we say gunsmithing is hard, what we mean is that stuff like making your own match grade ammo is hard - bullets don't fly in straight lines, so the exact amount of powder must be used on the exact same amount of bullet for sniper accuracy. If you're just attempting to unload a thousand rounds of ammo into a crowded room, nothing complex. Of course, no one designs around that concept because a pipe bomb is considerably more effective and easier to build, and so is a mortar, that's why organized terrorist groups use those.
So that's the basics, I'm obviously not in favor of control but I'm content to have intelligent debate on it, but you can't have intelligent debate without knowledge, and hopefully that typically Isaac-long piece above gave you some without boring you to tears
Fair warning, I'm going to go into explanation of gun function here, though I'll avoid technical jingo as much as possible
And this is the funny thing about guns. The ones people think of as especially large and dangerous are the big clunky ones with the simplest function. Precious little separates an automatic weapon from a stapler, engine piston, or potato gun in conceptual design. The same principals apply. Other than some clever improvements that once discovered were 'Oh duhs' and a few chemical and metallurgic tricks that actually aren't in most firearms anyway, the field is stagnant. The M2 Browning machinegun has been the workhorse of the Army and lots of other armies for the better part of a century and the ones in most unit armories are older than the soldier's parents, you just switch out warn out parts, mostly barrel and bolts pieces, and I don't doubt our own kids will still be using them. They are incredibly simple.
Assault rifles aren't, they are pretty complex. They are made complex not by being compact but by being non-automatic. Essentially it is the 'closed bolt' design - the thing that makes them inferior as fully automatic weapons - which is the main source of complexity. Further complexity is 'burst fire', where one trigger pull fires a set number of rounds. Converting a semiautomatic with no built in auto to an auto is not the easiest thing in the world but principally involves removing things, and I could sit anybody down in a halfway decently equipped homework workshop and walk them through a conversion. So there is a false premise that bigger is better, ironic in this age of electronics, that screws up the debate. A pistol can be made fully automatic, a 'machine pistol', and you don't see these much because they are terribly stupid weapons... unless you are simply trying to unload ammunition into a crowd. Since in military conflict the enemy generally does not cheerfully bunch together by the dozen ten feet away from you, nobody manufactures many of these. Though you can build one at home.
So that brings us back to this so-called '100 round capacity' and how dumb attempting to regulate it is. Especially if it is a belt-fed weapon. In a belt fed automatic weapon the bullets are tied together, the originals just used canvas cloth for the purpose, modern ones use little 'disintegrating' links that just fall off the casing when the reload occurs. Very simple, though if not done well you can get a lot of jams, same concept of why you buy a shovel or axe rather than building one of your own, industry can do it better and cheaper. Banning shovel manufacture won't eliminate the shovel. But a 'drum' where belt ammo is concerned, is simply a container, built fairly sturdy though it can be a canvas bag, that attaches to the weapon and has the belt inside it, where it can't have all 100 or 200 or more rounds hanging there adding their weight. You could achieve similar results by holding the belt near and level to the gun... which look cool but is retarded, or by hanging a lady's purse full of ammo just under the thing. They are not complex, the only reason they are built on the sturdy and expensive side compared to, say, a box for cereal, is because people tend to accidentally smack their gun around and drums and magazines tend to take a lot of abuse. So banning '100 round drums' is like banning tin cans, you can still use a mason jar or ceramics to achieve decent canned goods, and if you're planning to eat the food the same day or next, it's pretty redundant. A soldier will be slogging around with a weapons for weeks between firing, bumping into stuff and damaging the drum or magazine, and sturdy improvements are relatively cheap, thus we have them. Same applies for the linkage itself, almost anything will do the job, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable using thread or yarn, you'd need to play with it a bit to find a decent setup, but they were originally cloth and they've played around with platic and resin ones, no difficulty getting them to function but getting them to be 'significantly better' is an issue, our presumed rogue nutjob doesn't need better or even equal. I don't know that I'd put much faith in an ammobelt made of tied yarn and loaded into a cardboard box but it could work, and fabricating your own sturdy one of military grade wouldn't be complex, time consuming, or require special items we could track, even a standard disintegrating metallic belt, strip of metal and some hand tools.
Now, that's belt ammo, the mainstay of open bolt automatic weapons. Semi-automatics favor the magazine, no belt, and the closed bolt (the more complex one). Here after the bullet is fired the bolt bounces back from the firing and hits a spring, ejects the spent casing then comes forward on the spring recoil bringing another round up from the magazine, which also has a spring in it. There are many ways to build the design making it a complex subject but a conceptually easy one, each method is very simple itself. Manufacturing one at home is trickier than a belt fed one, but then the hardest part of forging a gun from scratch is making a decent barrel anyway, if you don't give a damn about accuracy or lost efficiency you really could just use a sturdy metal pipe.
So, magazine capacity. There are three limiting factor on this. First, practicality. Changing out a magazine is a speed process with practice. That practice is best done while moving and trying to do it at weird angles but you could practice to your heart's content in your own apartment. Most people would be able to switch magazines in a few seconds with even an hour or so of practice, getting good enough that you can do it while jogging or crouched or lying down with speed and no conscious thought takes more, but brings us to the other part of practicality... a large magazine is a large rigid object that can bang into things, get in the way, and doesn't store well in pockets. A two foot long magazine would store a lot of ammo but would be a bitch to operate. More you can't make arbitrarily long reliable objects deriving their mechanical forces from a spring.
Ways around this. Double column magazines are fairly practical, literally just a magazine with two columns of bullets or the casket design. And finally the drum. Unlike a belt drum which is just a box or bag for bullets, a drum magazine which requires slight more technology then a box with a metal or platic plate and a spring under it, but again stuff that seriously predates electronic devices and qualify as 'oh duh' technology like the paper clip or stapler, once someone shows you one, you slap your forehead and can't believe you didn't think of it. Single column mags are the most widespread because they are cheap, simple, most reliable and because switching out a magazine is quick. Also lower capacity is generally thought to make soldiers aim more, which is debatable.
I attach those little photos because I want to emphasize that even a a magazine is pretty simplistic and can be made at home. You can't pan springs, and you could make the plate and magazine body out of plastic, wood, whatever, anything fairly rigid. Now, taking existing magazines to increase their capacity is another story. Also not to be confused with taping magazines together 'jungle style'. Connecting two magazines together (I don't know the term beyond 'idiot style' ) is when you remove the base plate of one magazine and connect it to another... nobody does that unless theirs some law limiting normal magazine capacity because it's not the best way to do it, and just duct taping them together isn't very effective. There are clamp and other apparatus that make that more viable and thus would let you walk around carrying magazines with say, 10 rd capacity, then in 30 or 40 seconds assemble two or three or more of them together, some magazines are designed with this in mind, really no way you can ban 'decent engineering' so another thing most of us 'gun nuts' tend to laugh at.
Anyway, more than anyone probably wanted to know but I felt this was a better reply than repeating talking points everyone's heard a hundred times. If you've got a few thousand dollars lying around and have some mechanical aptitude, you can manufacture your own machine gun, including the bullets, without ever ordering anything gun related or any suspicious quantities of anything. You can't ban chemistry or engineering, and when we say gunsmithing is hard, what we mean is that stuff like making your own match grade ammo is hard - bullets don't fly in straight lines, so the exact amount of powder must be used on the exact same amount of bullet for sniper accuracy. If you're just attempting to unload a thousand rounds of ammo into a crowded room, nothing complex. Of course, no one designs around that concept because a pipe bomb is considerably more effective and easier to build, and so is a mortar, that's why organized terrorist groups use those.
So that's the basics, I'm obviously not in favor of control but I'm content to have intelligent debate on it, but you can't have intelligent debate without knowledge, and hopefully that typically Isaac-long piece above gave you some without boring you to tears
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
This message last edited by Isaac on 25/07/2012 at 02:34:54 PM
Do you have strong feelings/opinions about gun control?
25/07/2012 05:48:56 AM
- 1329 Views
Kind of?
25/07/2012 05:59:39 AM
- 773 Views
Agreed
25/07/2012 06:20:44 AM
- 617 Views
Re: Agreed
25/07/2012 06:29:16 AM
- 759 Views
A lot of people are uncomfortable about homsexuality. Let's ban that too.
25/07/2012 09:26:46 PM
- 746 Views
I'm pro-guns, but I don't think I have strong feelings about anything
25/07/2012 07:36:31 AM
- 688 Views
Pretty strong (as someone born, raised and living outside the US)
25/07/2012 11:23:52 AM
- 759 Views
Inevitable thread, but mostly I feel people enters this debate without knowing enough about guns
25/07/2012 02:05:12 PM
- 896 Views
I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry.
25/07/2012 02:47:05 PM
- 796 Views
Re: I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry.
25/07/2012 03:00:07 PM
- 697 Views
Re:
25/07/2012 03:30:44 PM
- 744 Views
My dad's gun were stolen and the police said they didn't need to even take fingerprints
25/07/2012 06:58:36 PM
- 759 Views
I understand, but you probably should if time permits
25/07/2012 03:49:49 PM
- 903 Views
It is unlikely to, for a while.
25/07/2012 10:37:30 PM
- 784 Views
Oh, but you have time to read Cannoli though
26/07/2012 01:10:50 AM
- 721 Views
... his was shorter?
26/07/2012 02:41:48 PM
- 637 Views
Yeah but mine had diagrams!
26/07/2012 03:46:49 PM
- 720 Views
I do sometimes need pictures.
26/07/2012 04:55:17 PM
- 584 Views
Where exactly did you get those numbers?
27/07/2012 07:23:31 PM
- 734 Views
Wikipedia, the unchallenged source for acurate and complete citation
27/07/2012 08:19:40 PM
- 799 Views
Sorry, I totally forgot about this post, hadn't noticed your replies.
31/07/2012 07:42:43 PM
- 710 Views
I'm not surprised there were missing incidents
31/07/2012 08:18:04 PM
- 690 Views
Norway? Scotland?
25/07/2012 09:31:49 PM
- 682 Views
And yet, the people who do these things tend to be more respectful of guns
25/07/2012 03:44:31 PM
- 685 Views
Well working with dangeorus items tends to lead to respect and caution or a Darwin Award
25/07/2012 04:52:13 PM
- 731 Views
I have no problem with guns, but I agree that assault weapons shouldn't be legal for ordinary people
25/07/2012 02:56:38 PM
- 743 Views
Re: guns
25/07/2012 03:07:30 PM
- 792 Views
what is the basis for your argument that people would have panicked and forgotten their guns?
25/07/2012 04:45:46 PM
- 644 Views
My basis is that people are people - subject to panic, confusion, and fear. *NM*
25/07/2012 05:46:58 PM
- 418 Views
Most people who regularly carry weapons reach for them when spooked, in my experience
25/07/2012 06:14:57 PM
- 692 Views
Re: Most people who regularly carry weapons reach for them when spooked, in my experience
25/07/2012 06:45:02 PM
- 801 Views
Putting your hand on something is a little different then shooting someone
25/07/2012 08:13:59 PM
- 656 Views
The problem with banning assualt weapons is the defention is mostly cosmetic
25/07/2012 05:29:35 PM
- 651 Views
Bullshit
26/07/2012 01:52:59 PM
- 793 Views
I call Bullshit on your Bullshit
26/07/2012 02:59:09 PM
- 703 Views
Or
26/07/2012 03:20:12 PM
- 621 Views
There a lot of us with military training and some were in that theater
26/07/2012 03:43:52 PM
- 620 Views
HE was talking about normal people.
26/07/2012 04:53:16 PM
- 730 Views
i have pretty strong feelings that they should be better regulated than they currently are
25/07/2012 03:18:10 PM
- 635 Views
Correct me if I'm wrong....
25/07/2012 03:53:07 PM
- 862 Views
I believe it was the ammunition he bought in large amounts online, not the guns themselves.
25/07/2012 07:22:31 PM
- 666 Views
Yes and I am glad it's not my problem.
25/07/2012 06:41:56 PM
- 773 Views
Well, you're missing the flaw in your reasoning...probably because you're appallingly ignorant
25/07/2012 09:19:18 PM
- 847 Views
Come back when you can discuss something without attacking someone.
26/07/2012 12:58:47 AM
- 669 Views
Dude, your burglary argument makes no sense
25/07/2012 11:09:37 PM
- 694 Views
They don't bring guns here. Huh. *NM*
26/07/2012 12:59:15 AM
- 335 Views
they don't typically bring guns here either
26/07/2012 02:01:14 AM
- 764 Views
That's how I understand it too but I'm dubious, many criminals are dumber than a bag of hammers
26/07/2012 02:22:18 AM
- 653 Views
Like I've always said, you can't un-invent the gun
25/07/2012 11:05:22 PM
- 644 Views
the argument of if America should have a lot guns is a long over
26/07/2012 03:29:50 PM
- 601 Views
See, there's another one of those BS stats tricks, 'family members' includes suicides and murder
26/07/2012 06:47:54 PM
- 635 Views
Sure, but you can legislate certain excessive firearms.
26/07/2012 09:41:12 PM
- 722 Views
assault rifles are banned
26/07/2012 10:51:28 PM
- 677 Views
I know the distinction. That's why I want a more clearly defined term for "assault weapon."
27/07/2012 09:46:11 AM
- 806 Views
Then stay away from the hyperbole because an Uzi is a sub machinegun so it is banned
27/07/2012 01:48:50 PM
- 659 Views