Re: I am not going to respond to you post line by line
Joel Send a noteboard - 29/06/2012 03:09:30 AM
We are kinda arguing past each other, I rather not do this, so I am going to make my points and finish this.
1a) We conquered Afghanistan in about 6 months Sept/Oct 2001 to March 2002. After Operation Anaconda the war as we traditionally call war was over. The Taliban (of that time frame) was mostly destroyed and the remains (that will morph into the new Taliban we are fighting today) was dislocated to 4 proviences in Southern Afghanistan and a good portion of Pakistan.
1b) The 6 month war of Afghanistan should be compared to the entirety of World War II. The following 10 years of the Afghanistan conflict should not be compared to World War II but instead the occupation of Japan and Germany following VE and VJ day. Less focus on the occupation of Germany should be analyzed since we split that country into 4 different sections and we only ruled the most southern part of Germany. It is irresponsible to compare troop numbers of the occupation of today's Afghanistan vs the fighting levels of Germany or Japan. This is why my Japan numbers were describing occupation numbers and not the war numbers.
The current conflict in Afghanistan is not war and shouldn't be called war, it is an occupation. There was little to no resistance to the US occupation of Germany and Japan after the wars were over, thus I ain't going to argue with you about groups that existed while the war was being fought in 1941 to 1945.
1a) We conquered Afghanistan in about 6 months Sept/Oct 2001 to March 2002. After Operation Anaconda the war as we traditionally call war was over. The Taliban (of that time frame) was mostly destroyed and the remains (that will morph into the new Taliban we are fighting today) was dislocated to 4 proviences in Southern Afghanistan and a good portion of Pakistan.
1b) The 6 month war of Afghanistan should be compared to the entirety of World War II. The following 10 years of the Afghanistan conflict should not be compared to World War II but instead the occupation of Japan and Germany following VE and VJ day. Less focus on the occupation of Germany should be analyzed since we split that country into 4 different sections and we only ruled the most southern part of Germany. It is irresponsible to compare troop numbers of the occupation of today's Afghanistan vs the fighting levels of Germany or Japan. This is why my Japan numbers were describing occupation numbers and not the war numbers.
The current conflict in Afghanistan is not war and shouldn't be called war, it is an occupation. There was little to no resistance to the US occupation of Germany and Japan after the wars were over, thus I ain't going to argue with you about groups that existed while the war was being fought in 1941 to 1945.
The difference is we spent four years slaughtering that resistance in WWII, while in Afghanistan (and Iraq) it simply melted away into the countryside because it knew it could win pitched battles. That is why we did not face the guerilla opposition in Germany and Japan that we do in Afghanistan: We had already killed or captured virtually its entire fighting force. The Afghan and Iraqi enemy did not stop fighting just because they let us march into the capital mostly unopposed; they just fought a guerilla rather than conventional war. We signed no peace treaty with either Saddam or the Taliban: We removed them from power. The war continues.
2) Our problem with Afghanistan (and a good part of Iraq) is that we thought we could through money and soldiers at the problem and that would make the problem go away. Lets call this mindset "subcontracting" our responsibility. We only succeeded with Iraq once the Sunnis wanted to play deal, for they were tired of Al Qaeda in Iraq, they were tired of a civil war between Sunni and Shia.
Our problem in both was that we did not have enough men to throw at either, much less both simultaneously. Even in terms purely of occupation, Americas 1945 occupation had the luxury of retaining as many as neccesary of the 3 million soldiers it took to conquer Nazi Germany, then sending the rest home. How many soldiers on their first German tour in May of '45 were on their fifth involuntary one three years later?
Occupations require martial law; their very nature is controlling a hostile populace. Martial law requires martial forces, and ours are as grossly insufficient in Afghanistan as they were in Iraq. GPS, Tomahawks and Predators cannot control and monitor every person in each grid of cities and entire countrysides; that requires men who can think and interrogate, not just watch and shoot. We only succeeded in Iraq once the Sunnis were willing to deal? According to Wikipedia,
Considerable tensions remain between various political and sectarian factions in Iraq. The majority Shiite government recognized Asaib Ahl al-Haq, an Iranian-backed militia, as a legitimate political party, and Iranian influence is growing in other ways; in January 2012, the commander of Iran’s Quds Force reportedly said that Iraq (as well as southern Lebanon) were under Iranian control.[77]
The Iraqi National Movement, representing the majority of Sunnis, boycotted Parliament for several weeks in late 2011 and early 2012, claiming that the Shiite-dominated government was striving to sideline Sunnis. In January 2012, Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, a Sunni, fled to the semi-autonomous Kurdish region after the government accused him of running a sectarian death squad; in February, a panel of Iraqi judges concluded that "death squads commanded by Mr. Hashimi carried out 150 attacks over six years against religious pilgrims, security officers and political foes".[77]
Insurgent forces continue to be active.
The Iraqi National Movement, representing the majority of Sunnis, boycotted Parliament for several weeks in late 2011 and early 2012, claiming that the Shiite-dominated government was striving to sideline Sunnis. In January 2012, Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, a Sunni, fled to the semi-autonomous Kurdish region after the government accused him of running a sectarian death squad; in February, a panel of Iraqi judges concluded that "death squads commanded by Mr. Hashimi carried out 150 attacks over six years against religious pilgrims, security officers and political foes".[77]
Insurgent forces continue to be active.
We NEVER "succeeded" in Iraq, because we never had the will or numbers for that. We accepted the reality we could accomplish no more than we had (removing Saddam from power) and got to Hell out of there.
3) At the same time the Sunnis were willing to play ball, we also were fighting the war in Iraq smarter and focusing on more of counter insurgency.
If that is your position we DEFINITELY failed, because the insurgency is as strong as ever. The country appears on the brink of the civil war and/or Iranian takeover everyone expected once we left, but that is no longer our problem. The insurgency did not disappear or diminish; it is just no longer killing Americans.
4a) We are not going to win in Afghanistan, it is too late. Afghanistan is now Afghanistan's problem we just can put band aids on the situation but we can't fight the underlying disease only Afghans can.
Sure we can: Impose martial law in the way already described, and well demonstrated by the occupations of both Germany and Japan. It is, however, doubtful the US or global public will tolerate any US general setting himself up as god-emperor and remaking their constitution in his image as MacArthur did in Japan. Last I checked, Japans constitution even forbade it possessing offensive military capabilities. However, the American public has no desire for the investment of time, money, energy and lives such a full scale occupation requires; it never did.
We could NEVER win in Afghanistan OR Iraq in any sense except removing hostile governments and getting the individuals who planned and financed 911. See link.
4b) I am in complete agreement with you, we never went in Afghanistan with the will to win it. We did half measures and went with the "cheapest option", instead of trying to rebuild it right. Because we didn't try to rebuild it right from the get go, it is going to be a mess that we leave 10 years later. Furthermore in the end it wasn't cheap for we spent 10 years trying to cover up the problems of Afghanistan instead of rebuilding the Afghan culture from the beginning. 10 years of fighting, death, and insurgency vs counter insurgency is not cheap.
Rebuilding either country required un-building what Saddam and the Taliban created. It required removing every last vestige of their autocratic governments, 24 hour curfews enforced by sentries at every major intersection verifying everyone on the street was who they claimed, where they belonged and doing what they were assigned, while aggressive patrols ensured no one slipped through the cracks. It also required a complete re-education of the populace, true indoctrination with principles of democracy and human rights. In particular, it required maintaining that level of presence and control until natives just entering school on our arrival reached voting age, so we leave the countries in the hands of an enlightened democratic electorate much of which had never been tainted in the first place by the theocratic tyranny we sought to annihilate. After a decade of that, you have West Germany ca. 1954 (when it became a (mostly) sovereign state.) The real tragedy of Iraq and Afghanistan is that, though we never intended to be, we were there long enough to do it: We simply never desired and therefore never exerted the necessary efforts.
We know how to do this; we have done it in the past. We just refuse.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 29/06/2012 at 03:10:32 AM
Death count in Afgan hits 2000, only CBS reports the news.....
22/06/2012 02:32:22 AM
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Lebron James won the NBA Championship tonight? *NM*
22/06/2012 05:53:06 AM
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Did not know the NBA had officially changed to a one-on-one format.
23/06/2012 12:52:34 AM
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I'm sure they'll all be discussing Afghanistan in the morning
22/06/2012 06:07:55 AM
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That would do it.
22/06/2012 10:32:39 AM
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We outnumber the taliban 12 to 1
22/06/2012 02:13:58 PM
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We outnumbered ALL OF GERMANY (not just the insurgent army) 15:1.
22/06/2012 10:54:01 PM
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I am not going to respond to you post line by line
23/06/2012 02:35:24 AM
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Re: I am not going to respond to you post line by line
29/06/2012 03:09:30 AM
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CBS is a liberal front.
22/06/2012 10:25:46 AM
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And less coverage since the networks are the media arm of Obama's reelection campaign.
22/06/2012 08:38:04 PM
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I fear you may be missing the point, deliberately or not.
22/06/2012 11:01:45 PM
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It's still a fairly legit point though
23/06/2012 12:06:19 AM
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Time tables, exit strategies and getting the man who blew up the WTC make all the difference.
23/06/2012 12:49:07 AM
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Re: Time tables, exit strategies and getting the man who blew up the WTC make all the difference.
23/06/2012 01:54:09 AM
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The casualty rate, circumstances and gains are highly critical to media reporting.
29/06/2012 02:27:43 AM
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Please excuse my ignorance...but who is 'Rather'? *NM*
28/06/2012 12:19:26 AM
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Sorry, wrong spot.
29/06/2012 06:27:22 AM
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lol...in my early days...JH had to tell me how to post, cause I kept posting in all the wrong spots *NM*
29/06/2012 08:34:43 AM
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Chalk this one up to sleep deprivation.
29/06/2012 10:37:58 AM
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lol. ahh what would WOT be without people staying up all night? *NM*
29/06/2012 11:04:32 AM
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It is kind of my thing.
29/06/2012 11:21:15 AM
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So glad I don't have to do nightshift anymore. Never got enough sleep!
29/06/2012 11:32:50 AM
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What Isaac said, yeah.
29/06/2012 01:47:20 AM
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Ty Joel...a lot there that I haven't heard about . *NM*
29/06/2012 08:33:20 AM
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Happy to oblige.
29/06/2012 10:37:20 AM
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ok, educate me lol....
29/06/2012 10:59:23 AM
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Oh, gosh, where to start.
29/06/2012 11:20:00 AM
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Ty . You explained very well *NM*
29/06/2012 11:30:47 AM
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