Well, you know better than I, but I found the 1580s date interesting.
Joel Send a noteboard - 28/05/2012 04:08:31 PM
That predates Plymouth Rock by nearly 40 years (and all English settlement in the Americas by about 20.)
That's when it became a civic holiday. The tradition of celebrating Action de Grâce goes way further, to 1799 the first time it was officially celebrated, and originates with British loyalists who migrated to Lower Canada from the south (that's you). Originally it thanked God and the King for the peace and prosperity of the realm, and it wasn't a fixed holiday but a celebration that was proclaimed at need.
Most of the French equivalents to those reaping festivals didn't follow or died fast in New France, as we never cultivated grapes.
Why it's not considered a religious holiday here is simple: most Québécois were catholics (and still nominally are), and it's not a catholic feastday but a popular feastday borrowed from protestants and thanking their King, which later became a federal civic day.
I suppose that is logical enough; America does not get that out though: It is hard to imagine Washington, local officeholders who preceded him, and presidents who have succeeded him since all being vain enough to declare by statute that the public should thank THEM, personally, for our relative good fortune. SO, OK then, three (though I suspect it still depends on whom you ask) with two of them being either/or in many cases. That means Sweden has over three times as many federally sanctioned Christian holidays as the US and Canada do. Which is a touch bizarre.
Actually, it's a secular feastday that existed in tons of traditions which the Church, who disapproved of those popular festivals thoroughly (for obvious reasons... the village's fool elected Abbot for a day and whatnot - the Church was mocked alongside authorities in general in carnivals), transformed into a religious feastday before Ash Wednesday. The religious feastday here is fat tuesday, which only old fashioned practicing catholics still hold to. Carnivals, charivaris etc. are not held at Mardi-Gras anymore and have all returned to their non-religious roots (though without the original "inverted world" symbolism, which belonged with medieval mentalities).
What about giving things up for Lent? Sounds like there may have been multiple factors (just the impression of a guy who did not know what Advent candles were two years ago.
)
Well.. culturally speaking only Christmas and Easter still have religious meanings for a sizeable percentage of the population (if not by any mean everyone). The other religious feastdays are now ignored by all but practicing catholics (and same for protestant ones I guess, I wouldn't even know what they are). Most of the Canadian civic holidays have nothing to do anymore with religion. Quite a few of them like St-Jean-Baptiste were full of pagan connotations... presenting the Baptist as an Appollo-like golden-haired child-sheepherder carrying a newborn lamb, and with pyres lit all night to celebrate the longest day. It's the old summer solstice festivals on which St-John and christian symbolism were tacked on by the Church. Now we've done away with the lamb and child, and we've even renamed the feastday to get rid of the last christian association, making it the province's National Holiday (it's still called St-Jean outside Québec).. We've kept the pyres. Not that the Church really complains, tons of modern priest around here care nothing for newborn lambs and solar child, easter water and the whole lot of christianized paraphernalia, and think that while they had a purpose once upon a time to integrate the last popular/pagan practices into Christianity, that's just accumulated clutter catholicism is much better without these days.
Well, as a non-denominational Christian I do not wholly disagree (if nothing else, every day is supposed to be the Sabbath for practicing Christians; not like one gets the day off from Christianity the rest of the year.) However, in those cases it is really just a question of how many people ignore the religious basis of inherently religious holidays they still celebrate without revering. Insisting religious holidays must entail religious observance, and nothing else, is how we wound up with fundies screaming about the "war on Christmas."
"Is grammy Jesus?! No? Then you visit her NEXT week. Here, I'll write you a note:
Please excuse Timmy from class to visit his grammy because his mommy dragged the godless commie kicking and screaming to church WHERE HE BELONGS ON CHRISTMAS111
What? NO, Santa isn't coming; he's of the Devil....
"
If most people celebrating an explicitly religious holiday are non-religious, it just means they are not religious; that does not change the holidays nature.
If you gleaned from the preceding that I spent the last sixteen hours laboriously typing out a response to Cannoli I am now too exhausted to edit, you shall feast well this eve in the Hall of Nourishing Thought. Sorry for the delay on yours, but fear not: You are next....
Wikipedia claims the origins of your Thanksgiving lie even farther back than ours, by the way, and quotes your Parliament establishing it officially in 1957
That's when it became a civic holiday. The tradition of celebrating Action de Grâce goes way further, to 1799 the first time it was officially celebrated, and originates with British loyalists who migrated to Lower Canada from the south (that's you). Originally it thanked God and the King for the peace and prosperity of the realm, and it wasn't a fixed holiday but a celebration that was proclaimed at need.
Most of the French equivalents to those reaping festivals didn't follow or died fast in New France, as we never cultivated grapes.
Why it's not considered a religious holiday here is simple: most Québécois were catholics (and still nominally are), and it's not a catholic feastday but a popular feastday borrowed from protestants and thanking their King, which later became a federal civic day.
I suppose that is logical enough; America does not get that out though: It is hard to imagine Washington, local officeholders who preceded him, and presidents who have succeeded him since all being vain enough to declare by statute that the public should thank THEM, personally, for our relative good fortune. SO, OK then, three (though I suspect it still depends on whom you ask) with two of them being either/or in many cases. That means Sweden has over three times as many federally sanctioned Christian holidays as the US and Canada do. Which is a touch bizarre.
basis and meaning remain religious just as Mardi Gras/Carneval does, even if many people with little or no religious fervor have since added unrelated aspects.
Actually, it's a secular feastday that existed in tons of traditions which the Church, who disapproved of those popular festivals thoroughly (for obvious reasons... the village's fool elected Abbot for a day and whatnot - the Church was mocked alongside authorities in general in carnivals), transformed into a religious feastday before Ash Wednesday. The religious feastday here is fat tuesday, which only old fashioned practicing catholics still hold to. Carnivals, charivaris etc. are not held at Mardi-Gras anymore and have all returned to their non-religious roots (though without the original "inverted world" symbolism, which belonged with medieval mentalities).
What about giving things up for Lent? Sounds like there may have been multiple factors (just the impression of a guy who did not know what Advent candles were two years ago.
)If we say any holiday people used for partying or just general rest and relaxation is disqualified as religious, then NO holiday is qualified.
Well.. culturally speaking only Christmas and Easter still have religious meanings for a sizeable percentage of the population (if not by any mean everyone). The other religious feastdays are now ignored by all but practicing catholics (and same for protestant ones I guess, I wouldn't even know what they are). Most of the Canadian civic holidays have nothing to do anymore with religion. Quite a few of them like St-Jean-Baptiste were full of pagan connotations... presenting the Baptist as an Appollo-like golden-haired child-sheepherder carrying a newborn lamb, and with pyres lit all night to celebrate the longest day. It's the old summer solstice festivals on which St-John and christian symbolism were tacked on by the Church. Now we've done away with the lamb and child, and we've even renamed the feastday to get rid of the last christian association, making it the province's National Holiday (it's still called St-Jean outside Québec).. We've kept the pyres. Not that the Church really complains, tons of modern priest around here care nothing for newborn lambs and solar child, easter water and the whole lot of christianized paraphernalia, and think that while they had a purpose once upon a time to integrate the last popular/pagan practices into Christianity, that's just accumulated clutter catholicism is much better without these days.
Well, as a non-denominational Christian I do not wholly disagree (if nothing else, every day is supposed to be the Sabbath for practicing Christians; not like one gets the day off from Christianity the rest of the year.) However, in those cases it is really just a question of how many people ignore the religious basis of inherently religious holidays they still celebrate without revering. Insisting religious holidays must entail religious observance, and nothing else, is how we wound up with fundies screaming about the "war on Christmas."
"Is grammy Jesus?! No? Then you visit her NEXT week. Here, I'll write you a note:
Please excuse Timmy from class to visit his grammy because his mommy dragged the godless commie kicking and screaming to church WHERE HE BELONGS ON CHRISTMAS111
What? NO, Santa isn't coming; he's of the Devil....
"If most people celebrating an explicitly religious holiday are non-religious, it just means they are not religious; that does not change the holidays nature.
If you gleaned from the preceding that I spent the last sixteen hours laboriously typing out a response to Cannoli I am now too exhausted to edit, you shall feast well this eve in the Hall of Nourishing Thought. Sorry for the delay on yours, but fear not: You are next....
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 29/05/2012 at 01:26:46 PM
For Our Nordmenn: What Happens to Federal Religious Holidays in the Absence of a State Church?
- 27/05/2012 01:33:20 PM
1082 Views
Nothing, they are federal holidays still because of strong unions, not religion
- 27/05/2012 06:58:52 PM
503 Views
Hypocrisy FTW, eh? 
- 27/05/2012 11:04:38 PM
649 Views
- 27/05/2012 11:04:38 PM
649 Views
No.
- 27/05/2012 11:16:11 PM
470 Views
Again, some people manifestly care; just not enough to relinquish a paid holiday.
- 28/05/2012 01:48:26 AM
499 Views
Nothing.
- 27/05/2012 07:03:07 PM
463 Views
Replacing it with another, secular, holiday seems the responsible thing to do.
- 27/05/2012 11:15:11 PM
433 Views
People. Don't. Care.
- 27/05/2012 11:29:07 PM
490 Views
If people did not care, disestablishmentarianism (and its antithesis) would not exist.
- 28/05/2012 01:41:18 AM
610 Views
Most of them are stolen from heden traditions and have nothing to do with christianity.
- 27/05/2012 07:15:55 PM
680 Views
Since two resident history buffs recently excoriated me for that claim, I have no wish to revisit it
- 27/05/2012 11:27:13 PM
599 Views
Thanksgiving isn't a religious holiday.
- 27/05/2012 08:43:58 PM
536 Views
That is rather debatable.
- 28/05/2012 12:08:53 AM
598 Views
The Distinction
- 29/05/2012 07:41:47 PM
551 Views
Thanksgiving was a purely federal institution. FDR dictated the date it's celebrated
- 30/05/2012 03:22:09 AM
488 Views
That distinction would be an almost wholly Roman Catholic (or possibly Greek Orthodox) one.
- 01/06/2012 01:47:12 AM
444 Views
How do you come to four for Canada?
- 27/05/2012 11:29:57 PM
431 Views
Because I counted Thankgiving, and holidays for federal employees rather than just statutory ones.
- 28/05/2012 02:03:55 AM
586 Views
Re: Because I counted Thankgiving, and holidays for federal employees rather...
- 28/05/2012 04:31:14 AM
489 Views
Well, you know better than I, but I found the 1580s date interesting.
- 28/05/2012 04:08:31 PM
660 Views
Re: Well, you no better than I, but I found the 1580s date interesting.
- 29/05/2012 01:15:52 AM
474 Views
Ireland has a tonne of religious public holidays yet no state religion.
- 28/05/2012 12:48:55 AM
506 Views
I wondered how that would shake out for the rest of Europe, or at least Western Europe.
- 28/05/2012 02:29:16 AM
525 Views
It's funny how you use "federal" to mean "mandated by national government".
- 28/05/2012 03:49:17 PM
465 Views
I was thinking more "central" government, but OK.
- 28/05/2012 04:26:38 PM
492 Views
Re: I was thinking more "central" government, but OK.
- 28/05/2012 04:50:32 PM
464 Views
Re: I was thinking more "central" government, but OK.
- 01/06/2012 02:03:40 AM
656 Views
I think you've got the Scotland Act backwards.
- 01/06/2012 09:48:36 AM
588 Views
There's a lot of countries that call "devolution" federalism, though.
- 01/06/2012 09:52:23 PM
561 Views
What about when most of the country is still under central control?
- 02/06/2012 10:25:47 AM
463 Views