No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source."
Joel Send a noteboard - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM
Not gonna happen; she has no credentials and plays fast and loose, not to mention self-servingly, with the facts, data and conclusions, so she has no credibility.
There is the rub; not only do none of the doctors your source cite use the term "brain waves," but virtually all of them are careful NOT to take a specific position on what the various detected first trimester brain activity means. It is misinterpreting (at best) or falsifying (at worst) the facts to claim they state first trimester fetal EEGs indicate living beings; it is no less so to claim they state such EEGs indicate NON-beings. The evidence is inconclusive, and one of the sources referenced in your source as much as says that; that your source then proceeds to attack both not only his conclusions but his credibility demonstrates nothing but her own bias.
When we begin debating whether an EEG at one stage of development is on par with an EEG at another stage we increasingly move from matters of fact to those of opinion. In general, I still tend to credit investigators with doctorates in medicine, law or (in Dr. Goldenrings case) BOTH over a policy advocate with no formal education on the matter who consults (and derides) their research second hand. Particularly when she falsely claims them to take a position they do not just because their conclusions do not support her position. When the medical and legal scholar with decades of practice, study and research says, "inconclusive," but the partisan advocate with none of those things says, "conclusive; he just mistated his data because he is pro-life," it is obvious which is credible.
The partisan pro-lifer claim first trimester fetuses are beings with the brainwaves of same is currently unverifiable; whether it is false is therefore unknowable. However, the claim, and thus the burden of proving it, is theirs; the evidence is inconclusive, so they have not met that burden and their claim is unsubstantiated. I have no argument there, but any counterclaim faces the same insurmountable challenges.
Your sources problem lies there, because she addresses that issue by attacking the doctors' conclusion their studies ALLOW no conclusion. That does not validate the blank check she wishes written, so it is not enough to refute pro-lifer claims first trimester fetal EEGs demonstrate a being: She seeks to affirm the position those EEGs demonstrate a NON-being, and consequently maligns all doctors who state otherwise. Had she restricted herself to refuting her partisans on the other side I would have no argument; my issue is that her agenda obliged her to falsely malign doctors as well, and that she overreached herself in the process.
That is a large, dubious, contentious and SEPARATE debate (just ask Michael Schiavo and his former in-laws.)
I have neither the energy nor the desire to repeat the same pointless conversation over and over again, as you merely restate your tangential remarks with each post.
This is the situation: the "pro-life" movement often makes claims that fetuses have "brain waves" at 8 weeks (or earlier). "Brain wave", as we have both noted, is not a technical term. That means we have to consider what the people making the statement are implying by their specific use of the term in order to judge the statement accurately.
This is the situation: the "pro-life" movement often makes claims that fetuses have "brain waves" at 8 weeks (or earlier). "Brain wave", as we have both noted, is not a technical term. That means we have to consider what the people making the statement are implying by their specific use of the term in order to judge the statement accurately.
There is the rub; not only do none of the doctors your source cite use the term "brain waves," but virtually all of them are careful NOT to take a specific position on what the various detected first trimester brain activity means. It is misinterpreting (at best) or falsifying (at worst) the facts to claim they state first trimester fetal EEGs indicate living beings; it is no less so to claim they state such EEGs indicate NON-beings. The evidence is inconclusive, and one of the sources referenced in your source as much as says that; that your source then proceeds to attack both not only his conclusions but his credibility demonstrates nothing but her own bias.
The "pro-life" movement has only one motivation to make such a statement: they think that it supports their view that fetuses are people. The relevant question, then, is whether or not fetuses have the same kind of "brain waves," or in general electric activity read by EEG, that people with functioning brains have. A trace of the sources cited for this claim shows no evidence in support of such a similarity, and actually some evidence against it.
When we begin debating whether an EEG at one stage of development is on par with an EEG at another stage we increasingly move from matters of fact to those of opinion. In general, I still tend to credit investigators with doctorates in medicine, law or (in Dr. Goldenrings case) BOTH over a policy advocate with no formal education on the matter who consults (and derides) their research second hand. Particularly when she falsely claims them to take a position they do not just because their conclusions do not support her position. When the medical and legal scholar with decades of practice, study and research says, "inconclusive," but the partisan advocate with none of those things says, "conclusive; he just mistated his data because he is pro-life," it is obvious which is credible.
That is the end of it. A claim was made; the claim, in its intended meaning, is probably false based just on the sources which supposedly supported it. Further, more direct research (such as the paper I originally linked) into fetal brain development shows that the higher brain functions have not developed, making the claim even more obviously false.
The partisan pro-lifer claim first trimester fetuses are beings with the brainwaves of same is currently unverifiable; whether it is false is therefore unknowable. However, the claim, and thus the burden of proving it, is theirs; the evidence is inconclusive, so they have not met that burden and their claim is unsubstantiated. I have no argument there, but any counterclaim faces the same insurmountable challenges.
Your sources problem lies there, because she addresses that issue by attacking the doctors' conclusion their studies ALLOW no conclusion. That does not validate the blank check she wishes written, so it is not enough to refute pro-lifer claims first trimester fetal EEGs demonstrate a being: She seeks to affirm the position those EEGs demonstrate a NON-being, and consequently maligns all doctors who state otherwise. Had she restricted herself to refuting her partisans on the other side I would have no argument; my issue is that her agenda obliged her to falsely malign doctors as well, and that she overreached herself in the process.
If my higher brain functions were destroyed, then my self/personality/mind/etc. would be gone. What remained (body, whatever was left of the lower brain) would not be a person.
That is a large, dubious, contentious and SEPARATE debate (just ask Michael Schiavo and his former in-laws.)
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit)
02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM
- 2276 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing
02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM
- 1181 Views
I agree.
02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM
- 1073 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill.
03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM
- 1061 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal.
03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM
- 1022 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked.
03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM
- 1116 Views
That is a little unfair.
03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM
- 1325 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?!
04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM
- 1109 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points.
04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM
- 1043 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority.
04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM
- 1026 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap?
04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM
- 1070 Views
It worries me when we think alike....
05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM
- 1094 Views

Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth.
05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM
- 1188 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation."
05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM
- 1102 Views
Oh please.
05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM
- 1064 Views
Re: Oh please yourself.
06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM
- 930 Views
Quite a telling reply.
07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM
- 1018 Views
Re: I quite agree.
08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM
- 1213 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip.
09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM
- 1032 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me.
11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM
- 1077 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments.
14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM
- 1330 Views
I presented factual rebuttals.
19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM
- 1120 Views
You continue to miss the point.
23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM
- 1190 Views
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source."
07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM
- 1119 Views
The claim of brain waves at 8 weeks is still unsupported by evidence, i.e. a myth.
15/03/2012 09:16:14 PM
- 1147 Views
Well, yes.
04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM
- 1107 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects.
05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM
- 1057 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect.
05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM
- 1145 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case.
04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM
- 1169 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case.
05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM
- 1026 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree.
05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM
- 899 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree.
05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM
- 1073 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree.
06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM
- 1019 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though.
07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM
- 1139 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM
- 1228 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM
- 1091 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM
- 1114 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM
- 1189 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM
- 1094 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM
- 1396 Views
There are problems with the implants
03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM
- 1082 Views
Any form of birth control doesn't work for everyone, though.
03/02/2012 02:37:00 AM
- 1100 Views
Oh yes, I totally agree! My point is just that there are some barriers to handing out implants
*NM*
03/02/2012 03:38:05 AM
- 504 Views

What on earth does that have to do with anything?
03/02/2012 01:47:42 AM
- 1007 Views
I was actually kinda with you until you closed with that anathema I condemned in my response to rt.
03/02/2012 01:39:06 PM
- 1041 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart
02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM
- 1218 Views
I agree.
02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM
- 990 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other
02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM
- 1059 Views
Right
02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM
- 1120 Views
it is a judgment call and I hope her decision is based on more than my guesses
02/02/2012 06:53:50 PM
- 976 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side?
02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM
- 1050 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that?
02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM
- 972 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry.
02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM
- 1039 Views
I know I'm not always clear.
02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM
- 1047 Views

Just curious...
02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM
- 1028 Views
Not at all.
02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM
- 1095 Views
Not at all?
02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM
- 986 Views
No.
02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM
- 946 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes
02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM
- 1044 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes
03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM
- 1036 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks
03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM
- 1020 Views

Ooor, the best.
03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM
- 990 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM*
03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM
- 619 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM*
03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM
- 569 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant...
02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM
- 1105 Views
You don't know stuff.
02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM
- 1074 Views
I know the stuff that matters.
02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM
- 977 Views

they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN
02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM
- 1122 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander.
03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM
- 1140 Views
did you notice I called tactic disgusting? That doesn't mean it isn't effective
03/02/2012 12:45:10 AM
- 1074 Views
The investigation by Congress is well-known to be specious. It's the House GOP abusing their power. *NM*
03/02/2012 12:41:58 AM
- 674 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me
02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM
- 1096 Views
Re: stuff
03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM
- 996 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer"
03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM
- 1025 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no.
04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM
- 1048 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that
04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM
- 984 Views
Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense.
02/02/2012 10:54:34 PM
- 1078 Views
Re: Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense.
02/02/2012 11:03:32 PM
- 993 Views
After a little more digging I have to say you are probably right.
03/02/2012 02:23:14 AM
- 932 Views
They restored funding incidentally
03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM
- 983 Views
Unless I've missed it
03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM
- 1053 Views
You must have missed it then
03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM
- 982 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli
03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM
- 1137 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words
03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM
- 1026 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you.
04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM
- 1047 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you.
04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM
- 1237 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision
03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM
- 1172 Views
Re: well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision
03/02/2012 06:29:34 PM
- 948 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen.
03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM
- 980 Views
Beyond the 26 senators, I'd imagine rumor of the more reliable sort
03/02/2012 08:46:31 PM
- 1038 Views
Well, if they wrote AS senators rather than friends of Nancy Brinker, that probably qualifies.
03/02/2012 10:24:11 PM
- 1095 Views
Judge for yourself
04/02/2012 12:01:06 AM
- 1099 Views
Well, a public letter makes whether they signed it "Sen. so-and-so" irrelevant: It is political.
04/02/2012 04:07:20 PM
- 1025 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted?
03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM
- 1114 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover.
03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM
- 1009 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened
04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM
- 1039 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite.
04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM
- 1075 Views

educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker
04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM
- 985 Views