What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born.
Joel Send a noteboard - 05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM
...which doesn't fit with how people actually describe themselves. [Fuller response delayed due to lack of time.]
Which very well fits how the vast majority of people subscribing to either have historically described themselves. In fact, admittedly cursory and sleep deprived scanning indicates the term "positive atheist" is younger than I (albeit not by much.)
Prescriptivism aside, "I do not know," is only "I do not know." If you claim knowledge rather than belief then, congratulations: You are an atheist, or "positive atheist," if you prefer; the definition fits both terms. However, that makes it untenable to claim a deity possible. Possibility and refuting evidence (i.e. knowledge there is no deity) cannot coexist. It is contradictory to say something is (not "may be," but IS) both false and possible; things known to be false are also impossible. Admitting Gods possibility therefore precludes stating His non-existence certain, and if it is uncertain we are dealing with agnosticism, not atheism.
According to the 2005 printing of The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, (though the definition has evidently been present since the first printing in 1967:)
In the most general use of the term, agnosticism is the view that we do not know whether there is a God or not.
According to the 1998 edition of the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas an atheist and a theist believe and disbelieve, respectfully. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that deities do or do not exist. In so far as one holds that our beliefs are rational only if they are sufficiently supported by human reason, the person who accepts the philosophical position of agnosticism will hold that neither the belief that God exists nor the belief that God does not exist is rational.
"Positive" and "negative" atheism are canards, attempts to claim certainty without the insurmountable inconvenience of having to prove it. When was the last time you heard of a lawyer winning a case with a summation like, "I cannot prove the defendant innocent; his guilt is a possibility—but I KNOW he is innocent"? That is just the kind of bias that gets potential jurors eliminated from pools. Reasonable doubt requires demonstrating evidence of guilt is insufficient (which may be true without INVALIDATING the evidence;) otherwise it is UNreasonable doubt. Yet even reasonable doubt only exists to prevent errant penalties; to the extent the concept is relevant at all, it argues Pascals Wager is "reasonably" certain (though that wager remains wrongly motivated, IMHO.)
Note that substituting "believe" for "know" makes the statement less rather than more convincing. Of course he believes the defendant innocent, else he would have sought a plea bargain or avoided the case entirely, yet that establishes nothing but his extreme overestimation of his ability to prove his case. It makes him a poor defender, not a "negative" one. Believing ones estimate of the odds on Pascals Wager very good makes it no more certainty or less probability. Claiming an undefinable probability is not only high, but high enough to equal certainty, reflects an embarrassingly bad grasp of what "probability" means.
Likewise, "negative atheism" is a poor dodge. It is a case of atheists no longer insisting they have (impossibly) proven a negative, but treating it as proven while insisting they do not, incidentally arguing the far more numerous agnostics are really atheists. That makes as much sense as me telling agnostics who believe in a deity, spirituality or any supernatural phenomenon they are really "negative Christians." Y'know, like Muslims and Hindus are. It is similar to Mormons "posthumously baptizing" Jewish Holocaust victims into their religion; the only difference is that many agnostics are still around to refute the declaration they are atheists.
A small population inventing a meaningless term to obscure dogmatism and feign inclusiveness does not legitimize it, certainly not after a single generation that makes its usage uncommon outside their own ranks and not universal even among them. If I defined "Americans living in Norway" as "negative Martians," in defiance of logic and language, it would be absurd. That would remain true in 2040, even if half of them and ten percent of others used the term that way by then.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Do you know the best way to anger an atheist?
28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM
- 1856 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously.
28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM
- 1188 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that.
28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM
- 946 Views
Well, for starters, it's really effing rude.
28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM
- 984 Views
It is an act of love.
29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM
- 1008 Views
Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity)
29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM
- 898 Views
I have some disturbing news for you...
29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM
- 946 Views
For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so
29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM
- 956 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated....
29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM
- 811 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting.
29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM
- 933 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting.
29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM
- 957 Views
I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours...
29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM
- 968 Views
I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part.
02/03/2012 09:05:29 AM
- 1329 Views
Re: I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part.
02/03/2012 06:26:06 PM
- 1109 Views
There are 3 critical distinctions: 1) Ability to sin, 2) Awareness of sin and 3) Appreciation of sin
05/03/2012 04:08:36 AM
- 879 Views
It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one.
29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM
- 1053 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous.
29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM
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It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo
29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM
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"Spiritual rape" might be going a bit far, but otherwise that sounds about right.
02/03/2012 08:06:48 AM
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Isn't religion different than faith, though?
28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM
- 1013 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said
28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM
- 803 Views
that won't work on Buddists
28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM
- 952 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM*
28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM
- 473 Views
That's always been my view of the issue. Half-assed non-religious types are just as obnoxious too.
28/02/2012 10:34:12 PM
- 1166 Views
Seems a got both a pat on the back and a scathing rebuke. I call that a good day
28/02/2012 11:57:45 PM
- 1235 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM*
28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM
- 616 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist."
28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM
- 1097 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism.
29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM
- 1037 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but...
29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM
- 834 Views
What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born.
05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM
- 972 Views
So what do you call this position?:
05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM
- 927 Views
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean.
05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM
- 982 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous.
05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM
- 805 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not?
05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM
- 1032 Views
What's happening
05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM
- 1015 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition.
07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM
- 1322 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people?
07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM
- 920 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes.
11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM
- 795 Views
Whatever.
12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM
- 1236 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree."
13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM
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I have known very few people who "believe" their religion from rearing and actually understand it.
29/02/2012 12:08:01 PM
- 1163 Views
I thought that was "best way to make an atheist roll his/her eyes at you"? *NM*
29/02/2012 11:05:21 PM
- 566 Views