I see your point, but not how it changes much in the conversation where we discussed that
Joel Send a noteboard - 25/02/2012 01:49:29 AM
I did phrase my rebuttal as a question, but that re-rebuttal sounds like just another dodge in the spirit of "capital gains taxes are double taxation even though we fought tooth and nail to have corporations treated as distinct persons, separating their income from that of shareholders."
I am aware of the distinction, but, IMHO, you make far too much of it. You argued federal taxes must be considered in conjunction with state and local taxes (and, as I said at the time, I strongly agree; it is an issue often ignored in vitriolic complaints against oppressive federal taxes.) I responded that "to the extent the latter are deducted from the former they are included in, not an addition to, federal income tax." Deductions lowering the amount of income federally taxed rather than directly lowering the tax itself does not significantly alter that. Income above a certain amount x is taxed; if income-x-state income tax>0, federal income tax is rightly owed. However, the federal tax includes the state tax by not taxing it.
In terms of the point you raised at the time (whether US corporate income tax is competive with other nations when local income income tax is added:) First and foremost, corporate income tax within political subdivisions is not unique to the US; Canada and Germany (to name just the ones I know of) have them also. If we want to trade simplicity for precision by considering local taxation, we must do so across the board. That will diminish the effects of corporations paying 18, 12 or 0% tax (instead of 38%) on billions in profits, but it will be no less egregious in terms of federal corporate income tax.
Even the overall effect will not be diminished much though, because corporate income tax is <10% in all but one place (the top earners in IA,) <9% in all but six others and <8% in all but ten others. Four states have no corporate income tax at all (not counting TX, which taxes either income or capital, whichever is higher, as a franchise tax.) Even in the case of the most profitable IA corporations, 12%+0% (or 12%, or even 18%) is not too bad for a corporation earning billions in profits, and quite competitive with any country where any corporation wants to maintain its headquarters. US companies build FACTORIES in Third World despotisms; they do NOT incorporate there, because the kind of governments willing to grant low corporate income tax rates tend to be the kind who simply seize corporate income if it becomes large enough to warrant the effort. For all the talk about Americas "extreme" corporate income tax costing us business, how many companies have actually left the US instead of simply moving their production?
As to the ad hominems... well, they are not the best way to bolster disingenuous arguments.
He does display an only superficial understanding of the tax code, however. A case in point is that he recently tried to say that state taxes didn't count in determining the effective tax rate because they were deducted, apparently failing to appreciate the difference between a deduction (which reduces only one's taxable income) and a credit (which is a dollar for dollar reduction in one's tax bill).
I am aware of the distinction, but, IMHO, you make far too much of it. You argued federal taxes must be considered in conjunction with state and local taxes (and, as I said at the time, I strongly agree; it is an issue often ignored in vitriolic complaints against oppressive federal taxes.) I responded that "to the extent the latter are deducted from the former they are included in, not an addition to, federal income tax." Deductions lowering the amount of income federally taxed rather than directly lowering the tax itself does not significantly alter that. Income above a certain amount x is taxed; if income-x-state income tax>0, federal income tax is rightly owed. However, the federal tax includes the state tax by not taxing it.
In terms of the point you raised at the time (whether US corporate income tax is competive with other nations when local income income tax is added:) First and foremost, corporate income tax within political subdivisions is not unique to the US; Canada and Germany (to name just the ones I know of) have them also. If we want to trade simplicity for precision by considering local taxation, we must do so across the board. That will diminish the effects of corporations paying 18, 12 or 0% tax (instead of 38%) on billions in profits, but it will be no less egregious in terms of federal corporate income tax.
Even the overall effect will not be diminished much though, because corporate income tax is <10% in all but one place (the top earners in IA,) <9% in all but six others and <8% in all but ten others. Four states have no corporate income tax at all (not counting TX, which taxes either income or capital, whichever is higher, as a franchise tax.) Even in the case of the most profitable IA corporations, 12%+0% (or 12%, or even 18%) is not too bad for a corporation earning billions in profits, and quite competitive with any country where any corporation wants to maintain its headquarters. US companies build FACTORIES in Third World despotisms; they do NOT incorporate there, because the kind of governments willing to grant low corporate income tax rates tend to be the kind who simply seize corporate income if it becomes large enough to warrant the effort. For all the talk about Americas "extreme" corporate income tax costing us business, how many companies have actually left the US instead of simply moving their production?
As to the ad hominems... well, they are not the best way to bolster disingenuous arguments.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Why Joel is CRAZY - Nearly Half of All Americans Don't Pay Federal Income Taxes
23/02/2012 04:43:15 AM
- 1487 Views
A not so hypothetical situation...
23/02/2012 05:46:44 AM
- 904 Views
Your paying more money now than then. Lower rate but more money *NM*
23/02/2012 07:52:51 AM
- 535 Views
Why the heck do you think the current tax system is skewed to the rich?
23/02/2012 03:18:43 PM
- 1045 Views
Once again, poor people have no money with which to pay taxes.
23/02/2012 06:23:07 AM
- 1063 Views
50% of America is not "poor" or too poor to pay federal income taxes.....
23/02/2012 01:01:24 PM
- 960 Views
You base that statement on what, exactly? Fervent desire that it be true?
25/02/2012 12:43:30 AM
- 1440 Views
2009 (the year cited for this claim) was an outlier because of temporary tax cuts and the economy.
25/02/2012 01:14:01 AM
- 1214 Views
Interesting, but lacking the data I consider critical; FICA etc. should not be counted, IMHO.
25/02/2012 02:10:45 AM
- 1062 Views
It's a phrasing thing, permits more bullshit
25/02/2012 04:41:06 AM
- 1033 Views
Maybe I am just playing the same game,but I find stats from "the other side" compelling in some ways
25/02/2012 10:36:40 AM
- 1482 Views
You're operating under the same fallacy he does - that people should pay income taxes.
23/02/2012 12:05:52 PM
- 1100 Views
In much the same way
23/02/2012 01:40:58 PM
- 1060 Views
Joel is crazy, but I highly doubt that this is "why"
23/02/2012 01:36:37 PM
- 1089 Views
I see your point, but not how it changes much in the conversation where we discussed that
25/02/2012 01:49:29 AM
- 871 Views
You mention this statistic all the time.
23/02/2012 02:16:47 PM
- 772 Views
Obviously, we are talking about the bottom 50%.....
23/02/2012 03:22:43 PM
- 816 Views
I wonder how much of that statistic is students
23/02/2012 02:22:58 PM
- 1034 Views
The number "paying taxes" should include dependents of those paying
23/02/2012 02:39:21 PM
- 1008 Views
yah I read the link, but apparently I just didn't understand their explanation.
23/02/2012 05:40:54 PM
- 811 Views
Federal taxes
23/02/2012 04:18:22 PM
- 906 Views
Your figures are fairly unrealistic
23/02/2012 04:54:44 PM
- 1099 Views
Not entirely.
23/02/2012 06:30:18 PM
- 847 Views
Yeah I don't normally assume NY as a baseline
23/02/2012 06:41:37 PM
- 941 Views
It probably isn't. We even tax delivery fees, gardening services and other things with sales tax.
25/02/2012 07:03:46 PM
- 900 Views
We don't tax transport of property either
25/02/2012 08:16:53 PM
- 948 Views
Places usually get around it with free delivery. A tax on a $0 item is still $0. *NM*
25/02/2012 09:12:22 PM
- 408 Views
Income taxes are not the only kind of taxes. 86% of Americans pay payroll or income tax.
23/02/2012 09:51:50 PM
- 1053 Views
And give the riff raff a reason to become involved in politics? Are you daft? *NM*
24/02/2012 05:04:51 AM
- 558 Views
25% of america is under 18, that means ~25% of the rest are not working or paid very little
25/02/2012 08:17:52 PM
- 1049 Views