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I think you're leaving out some important points. nossy Send a noteboard - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM
Abstinence-only "sex ed" doesn't work. Teenagers are going to have sex no matter what they're told by adults, so the choice is to give them good information or not. Giving them no information about birth control (or false information, as many abstinence-only programs have been found to do) just leaves them unprepared. That generally affects them through their adult years, as well.

I agree with this.

(Sexual consent laws are not nearly as uniform as you claim, either. Laws defining appropriate age ranges for sexual conduct for minors, e.g. it's okay for a 16-year-old to have sex with a 17-year-old but not a 40-year-old, are not uncommon. This is utterly tangential to the actual point, though.)

If the "pro-life" movement realistically wanted to eliminate abortion, they would fund research into improving things like Implanon so that everyone would get an implant when they turned X (12, 14, 16, whatever) and no one could get pregnant or get someone pregnant unintentionally. That is a solution that actually acknowledges reality and works within it. Railing against Planned Parenthood and "marching for life" are not solutions.

I agree with the basic premise. I discuss the other side below.

The "pro-life" movement ultimately stems from the feeling, generally religiously inspired, that pregnancy must be a necessary consequence of sex. The idea that we could separate the two is what most of the movement actually opposes.

Not most. Some vocal proponents, and in some cases, they are only against the types of birth control that release a fertilized embryo. We, of course, get parents who don't think someone else should be teaching their children the facts of life or providing birth control so they can experience them, but I know plenty of people (and have read quite a bit about it as well) who use and support some types of birth control while not believing women should be allowed the choice of abortion. It's the latter that makes someone specifically pro-life.

Women who have sex out of wedlock should be punished by having to carry the pregnancy to term. Those are the oppressive sexual mores to which I referred. (Interpreting that as "locking up your kids"-style oppression was not a high point of your reply.)

No, women who conceive shouldn't be able to end a life. That is what most pro-life proponents say. At one point, the majority may have believed what you say there, but it isn't that way any longer. Reality is starting to set in. If you could get any of our pro-life people to weigh in, I *think* they would say I'm correct.

So. There are more people against abortion who DO support birth control than there are who reject all of it. The problem really is that they feel that abortion is enough of a crime to negate the need for a place that provides that service. If PP stopped offering abortions and abortion counselling, they would have many more supporters. You cannot ignore that abortion is a strong enough "NO!" for some that it outweighs other positive factors (re: PP).

If they really felt that a single-celled zygote is morally equivalent to a person and abortion is murder, they would not act they way they do. Murder is a more important issue than birth control or teenage sex. Also, most pregnancies end in miscarriage, without the woman even knowing she was pregnant; a "pro-lifer" ought to see this as an epidemic. I have almost never encountered any who realize this, let alone try to do anything about it. (Every once in a while, some state legislator ends up trying to criminalize miscarriages, and quickly gets eaten alive in the public eye.)

You're simplifying it. In most cases, miscarriages are natural. As unfortunate as it is, people lose babies fairly often, and that is very different to deciding to end that life on purpose. Pro-lifers believe conception makes a baby, and that abortion is murder, but you'll never have a fair argument about it if you continue to believe that most pro-lifers are also against all bc. That is a decreasing statistic, and mainly remains because of the types of bc available - some release the fertilized egg (which, incidentally, is exactly why I agree with you re: birth control research).
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) nossy - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2193 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing beetnemesis - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 1083 Views
I agree. nossy - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 996 Views
I can understand it though. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 1055 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. nossy - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 966 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 980 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. Sareitha Sedai - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 941 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 1027 Views
That is a little unfair. Joel - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1236 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! Dreaded Anomaly - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 1024 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. nossy - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 967 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 942 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? Ray - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 965 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 960 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... Joel - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 1001 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1103 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." Joel - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 1016 Views
Oh please. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 980 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. Joel - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 857 Views
Quite a telling reply. Dreaded Anomaly - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 922 Views
Re: I quite agree. Joel - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1127 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 966 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. Joel - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 988 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1225 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. Joel - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 1018 Views
You continue to miss the point. Dreaded Anomaly - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1108 Views
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." Joel - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM 1026 Views
The claim of brain waves at 8 weeks is still unsupported by evidence, i.e. a myth. Dreaded Anomaly - 15/03/2012 09:16:14 PM 1065 Views
Well, yes. nossy - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 1027 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 971 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. nossy - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 1065 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 964 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* nossy - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 589 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. Joel - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 1055 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 965 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Joel - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 799 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 967 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Joel - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 948 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. Dreaded Anomaly - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 1044 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1135 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 1003 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 1032 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1096 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 1011 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1311 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 966 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1225 Views
There are problems with the implants LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 991 Views
Any form of birth control doesn't work for everyone, though. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 02:37:00 AM 1009 Views
Oh yes, I totally agree! My point is just that there are some barriers to handing out implants *NM* LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 03:38:05 AM 468 Views
You have a talent for understatement. Joel - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 976 Views
What on earth does that have to do with anything? Cannoli - 03/02/2012 01:47:42 AM 923 Views
I was actually kinda with you until you closed with that anathema I condemned in my response to rt. Joel - 03/02/2012 01:39:06 PM 954 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart Ray - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1125 Views
I agree. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 908 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other Ray - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 975 Views
Right nossy - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1025 Views
it is a judgment call and I hope her decision is based on more than my guesses Ray - 02/02/2012 06:53:50 PM 895 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 973 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? nossy - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 881 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 963 Views
I know I'm not always clear. nossy - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 966 Views
Just curious... Narg - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 948 Views
Not at all. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 1012 Views
Not at all? Narg - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 903 Views
No. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 865 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes Ray - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 956 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes nossy - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 954 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks Ray - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 918 Views
Ooor, the best. nossy - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 900 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* Ray - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 588 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* nossy - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 534 Views
rabble rouser *NM* Ray - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 551 Views
I misread this at first Sareitha Sedai - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 959 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post Ray - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 2001 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. nossy - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 890 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it Ray - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 962 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. Joel - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 908 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... Legolas - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 1032 Views
You don't know stuff. nossy - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 995 Views
I know the stuff that matters. Legolas - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 897 Views
That's true. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 987 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN Ray - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 1039 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. Aeryn - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 1050 Views
did you notice I called tactic disgusting? That doesn't mean it isn't effective Ray - 03/02/2012 12:45:10 AM 982 Views
The investigation by Congress is well-known to be specious. It's the House GOP abusing their power. *NM* Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 12:41:58 AM 644 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me Lews_TherinThelamon - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 1015 Views
Must be nice. *NM* nossy - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 640 Views
Re: stuff rebelaessedai - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 914 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 945 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. rebelaessedai - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 959 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that LadyLorraine - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 903 Views
Fair enough. rebelaessedai - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 974 Views
Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense. Joel - 02/02/2012 10:54:34 PM 995 Views
Re: Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense. nossy - 02/02/2012 11:03:32 PM 920 Views
After a little more digging I have to say you are probably right. Joel - 03/02/2012 02:23:14 AM 857 Views
They restored funding incidentally Isaac - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 891 Views
Unless I've missed it nossy - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 979 Views
You must have missed it then Isaac - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 895 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli nossy - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 1047 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words Isaac - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 923 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. nossy - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 957 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. Isaac - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1149 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. nossy - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 978 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. Isaac - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 946 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision random thoughts - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1091 Views
Re: well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision Isaac - 03/02/2012 06:29:34 PM 865 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. Joel - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 898 Views
Truth Dannymac - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 1002 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. Joel - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 894 Views
Beyond the 26 senators, I'd imagine rumor of the more reliable sort Isaac - 03/02/2012 08:46:31 PM 962 Views
Well, if they wrote AS senators rather than friends of Nancy Brinker, that probably qualifies. Joel - 03/02/2012 10:24:11 PM 1009 Views
Judge for yourself Isaac - 04/02/2012 12:01:06 AM 1020 Views
Well, a public letter makes whether they signed it "Sen. so-and-so" irrelevant: It is political. Joel - 04/02/2012 04:07:20 PM 947 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? random thoughts - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 1022 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. Joel - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 924 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened Ray - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 948 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. Joel - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 996 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker Ray - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 893 Views
Dude. nossy - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 836 Views
Yo mama? Joel - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 990 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy nossy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 965 Views
Why would I not think that? Joel - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 863 Views
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