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Against SOPA, sure; against ANY new law, no. Joel Send a noteboard - 18/01/2012 10:46:48 PM
Any other arguments you'd care to try?

And far more constructive than "things are fine as they are!" when they clearly are not.


Not every person knows enough about the law, about the internet, about businesses, etc, to be able to contribute meaningfully to a new bill. They can only voice their pleasure or displeasure with this particular version of it, which is exactly what they are doing. The people that are in a position to do something, and that have the knowledge for it, have made suggestions, and repeatedly pointed out what they find wrong with the bill. Wikipedia and other sites aren't just saying they're having a blackout due to SOPA, they're having a blackout due to SOPA causing X, Y, and Z. That means they are letting congress know of their concerns, and from there congress can address those concerns by making a new draft.

"Rather than just look at how legislation can be stopped, ask yourself: Where do we go from here? Don't limit your opinion to what's the wrong thing to do, ask yourself what's right."

So Wikipedia responded by blacking out their (English) site to protest and create public awareness, then stated their objections to provisions X, Y and Z.

That is not "people that are in a position to do something, and that have the knowledge for it, [making] suggestions," it is just "repeatedly [pointing] out what they find wrong with the bill."

That ain't gonna do it. The media industry did not just say, "Hey Congress, piracy is threatening our livelihood; could you figure out some way to fix that?" They suggested various MEANS of doing so. If no others are suggested, guess which ones will win by default.

If their concerns are suitably addressed, those people will stop complaining. If their concerns are not address, they have every right to continue complaining. If the bill manages to get passed anyway, and there are enough people unhappy with it, new senators and representatives will be elected to fix the issue. That's how democracy is supposed to work. Not with every person writing a letter to Congress suggesting alternative legislation that would be more suitable, that's ridiculous. People only give a yes or no response, and then have the power of voting to keep politicians in check. They've already made their unhappiness quite clear, so I don't see what more could be required of them.

People simply voting once every two years on whether to keep legislators who enacted hordes of policies of which they are only vaguely and distantly aware is how democracy FAILS, not how it works. You think we got the 40 hour work week by people telling Congress, "our bosses make us work too much; can you fix that?" Think we got the Clean Water Act by people saying, "hey, Congress, my soup tastes like gasoline; is there anything you can do about that?"

TELL them what you WANT; they are not mindreaders, and piracy is a serious growing problem. Faced with industry lobbies saying, "do X, Y and Z" to correct a real problem and netizens saying, "no, it will be the end of elife as we know it!" they will choose the former every time. They WILL pass a new law sooner or later; if you do not want it to be SOPA and/or PIPA, tell them what you DO want (like Obama requested) because telling them what you do NOT want is counterproductive until/unless they have an alternative. That would be true in any such case, but is particularly so in the case of the internet, where most Congressmen MUST rely on what they are told about an issue on which few, if any, of them are deeply knowledgeable.

Again, ya'll are doing a great job convincing me of two things:

1) SOPA and PIPA are horrible bills and
2) They will soon be law anyway because no one can see past that far enough to admit SOME bill is necessary and propose a better one.
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English Wikipedia Anti-SOPA Blackout - 17/01/2012 08:31:46 AM 2168 Views
Yeah, man, because currently copyright holders have no recourse, am I right? - 17/01/2012 11:47:35 AM 996 Views
"altering the infrastructure of the Internet so as to render RAFO virtually inaccessible"? - 17/01/2012 08:12:27 PM 1106 Views
I'll go ahead and ask before I get my panties in a bunch: do you understand these bills? - 17/01/2012 09:09:22 PM 1207 Views
I admit I have not looked into it much - 17/01/2012 11:42:30 PM 1054 Views
And yet you're still arguing the matter. - 18/01/2012 02:34:04 AM 1161 Views
I love you. *NM* - 18/01/2012 03:41:03 AM 659 Views
heh, thanks. I usually find myself pushing minority opinions. Nice to be "appreciated" for once. *NM* - 18/01/2012 04:01:10 AM 644 Views
Can i second the adulation? - 18/01/2012 04:07:17 AM 883 Views
I too (three?) appreciate the common sense and reasonable explanations. *NM* - 18/01/2012 04:12:59 AM 642 Views
Thanks guys. - 18/01/2012 04:39:00 AM 1058 Views
Right, because the argument is not just over THIS bill but, apparently, over ANY bill. - 18/01/2012 11:09:13 AM 1061 Views
Alternatives to SOPA/PIPA have been proposed for months now. Please stop arguing this. - 18/01/2012 05:42:10 PM 975 Views
That is really all I ask. - 18/01/2012 06:26:37 PM 1046 Views
"sensitive federal content"? Provide a source justifying this claim and it's relevance, please. - 18/01/2012 05:59:47 PM 1073 Views
I would not have thought a source necessary. - 18/01/2012 06:24:44 PM 1063 Views
Okay, I'm with Aemon now. - 18/01/2012 07:36:21 PM 1076 Views
OK. - 18/01/2012 10:16:16 PM 1107 Views
Surreal. It's like you're a spam-bot or something. *NM* - 19/01/2012 01:23:35 AM 778 Views
That was constructive. - 19/01/2012 03:29:53 PM 987 Views
Very nicely summarised. *NM* - 18/01/2012 02:06:02 AM 580 Views
should be interesting - 17/01/2012 12:41:47 PM 932 Views
Could be; depends on a lot of factors. - 17/01/2012 07:38:55 PM 1004 Views
See, that's one of the biggest problems that people aren't understanding. - 17/01/2012 09:31:38 PM 1009 Views
So tell them that. - 17/01/2012 11:54:19 PM 1162 Views
Could've done without the snide rejoinder, but, good. - 17/01/2012 02:20:08 PM 928 Views
I love the black banner, like some kind of internet Holocaust. - 17/01/2012 08:03:27 PM 1073 Views
Are you aware that SOPA/PIPA has nothing to do with hackers and everything to do with copyright? - 18/01/2012 02:08:56 AM 923 Views
There seems to be some overlap. - 18/01/2012 01:08:22 PM 1029 Views
Re: There seems to be some overlap. - 18/01/2012 08:13:15 PM 921 Views
Re: There still seems to be some overlap. - 18/01/2012 10:27:32 PM 1182 Views
Er, what Ghav said. - 18/01/2012 02:30:37 AM 940 Views
Sorry, protecting Pirate Bay and offshore gambling are not compelling counterarguments. - 18/01/2012 11:38:08 AM 992 Views
Okay, another analogy: - 18/01/2012 02:04:12 PM 934 Views
A technical examination of SOPA and PROTECT IP - 18/01/2012 08:32:44 AM 944 Views
"As a disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, I'm a sysadmin." - 18/01/2012 12:47:16 PM 1205 Views
wow, you are totally correct! - 18/01/2012 03:45:54 PM 944 Views
That is a separate issue. - 18/01/2012 04:01:24 PM 970 Views
Thank you for posting that. - 18/01/2012 03:09:07 PM 1010 Views
Wikipedia has already convinced me - 18/01/2012 03:26:01 PM 820 Views
Trying to stop this legislation without proposing an alternative is trying to stop ANY legislation. - 18/01/2012 03:44:18 PM 1050 Views
It isn't their job to propose legislation - 18/01/2012 04:12:53 PM 969 Views
No, but they have as much RIGHT to do so as anyone else. - 18/01/2012 05:31:55 PM 950 Views
Strike three. - 18/01/2012 05:37:55 PM 1008 Views
That is fine; that is what people SHOULD be doing. - 18/01/2012 06:03:59 PM 822 Views
Things being better now than they would be under SOPA seems like a legitimate argument to me - 18/01/2012 09:04:18 PM 1094 Views
Against SOPA, sure; against ANY new law, no. - 18/01/2012 10:46:48 PM 929 Views
Re: Against SOPA, sure; against ANY new law, no. - 19/01/2012 12:15:48 AM 1006 Views
That is a poor approach to drafting legislation, at best. - 19/01/2012 04:37:22 PM 1017 Views
About "proposing new legislation" - 18/01/2012 04:45:08 PM 1079 Views
So true - 18/01/2012 05:08:45 PM 1016 Views
Not to go off on a tangent about combatting piracy... - 18/01/2012 05:38:12 PM 937 Views
Entirely agree *NM* - 18/01/2012 06:13:13 PM 636 Views
That was an excellent post. *NM* - 19/01/2012 11:18:19 PM 616 Views
Re: About "proposing new legislation" - 18/01/2012 05:59:55 PM 1160 Views
For those who want a short, one page explanation... - 18/01/2012 05:41:49 PM 958 Views
Yeah, so I use Russian wikipedia for a day. Or German wikipedia, or French, or Italian... *NM* - 18/01/2012 06:23:36 PM 688 Views
We get it: You are a polyglot. - 18/01/2012 06:27:48 PM 947 Views
Or just hit stop right before the script runs. *NM* - 18/01/2012 06:52:40 PM 680 Views
Or just disable Java. *NM* - 19/01/2012 01:58:03 AM 548 Views
That's not as much fun though. *NM* - 19/01/2012 02:13:44 AM 674 Views
Exactly, this way its kind of a game. *NM* - 19/01/2012 02:20:37 AM 485 Views
Or Answers.com, or even the actual sources that are often copy/pasted into Wikipedia... - 19/01/2012 01:07:38 AM 1048 Views
They all did it on twitter - 19/01/2012 01:26:19 AM 981 Views
I was asleep much of the day - 19/01/2012 02:40:11 AM 1060 Views
Oh, no; now Congress will be inundated with complaints from lazy college students! - 19/01/2012 04:40:12 PM 1096 Views
13 previously unopposed senators now do not support SOPA. - 19/01/2012 11:36:15 PM 1048 Views
How does that "rebutt" what was a facetious post in the first place? - 20/01/2012 09:24:27 PM 1151 Views
a joke can, indeed, be rebutted... - 21/01/2012 09:07:32 PM 1041 Views
Oh, draggie, I ALWAYS see what you do there. - 21/01/2012 10:01:58 PM 1010 Views

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