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You need to consider that they WILL pass some legislation, and what you want it to contain. Joel Send a noteboard - 18/01/2012 12:15:38 PM
1. sopa/pipa is going to change copyright infringement from what is currently a civil infraction, punishable by a maximum penalty of $150k (US) for the worst infringements into a felony with a jail term of 5 years. plus, they are changing the definition of what is meant by infringement to include sites which offer streaming services such as youtube, hulu, etc. this is not sustainable and impractical to properly police.

OK, so tell Congress and the White House what is wrong with that, and propose a superior alternative. In that particular case, there is a good argument existing penalties are sufficient and no new law necessary. However, as noted above, when people (as so many do) argue already illegal activities should not BE illegal, and therefore NO penalty is appropriate, they have as much credibility and attention from the federal government as people arguing the same thing about recreational drugs. And about as much hope of success.

2. if the DNS provisions pass (which thankfully it looks like they won't -- yet), the internet as we know it will cease to exist and be replaced by the internet as brought to you by rupert murdoch, the mpaa/riaa, and the current US attorney general. if one of the groups involved in writing this bill gets their way, you won't be able to go to websites they don't want you to see, end of story. the attorney general has the power to pull the DNS for any website he/she deems to be infringing. how long before this power extends to websites he/she does not want the public to see? tell me you think the government will restrain itself with such power at its disposal?

Correct me if I am wrong, but does the government not already have that POWER and AUTHORITY? Are we not talking about legislation that simply expaning the basis on which both can be USED without violating US law? It certainly SOUNDS like the bills under consideration would just streamline the process whereby commerical entities can get government to take down a site for alleged copyright infringement. In terms of government abusing regulatory power, denying all access to sites with content it does not want people to see: It could do that now, yet there is little evidence it does, so I do not see why these bills would change that.

3. the DNS provisions will essentially do the same thing as malware that redirects your search results to malicious websites. only this time, the redirection is controlled by the federal government by the attorney general's command. this is almost exactly bringing the "great firewall of china" to the US. and all because hollywood is trying to pretend they're missing out on all this money. money which they have never statistically proven they are actually missing out on, and money which for some reason hasn't stopped them from posting substantial profits every year. ask yourself why the US government is protecting the business model of this industry, and what purpose the government has for propping up the industry in such a way.

Wait, I am confused: People keep keep saying these bills would "fundamentally alter the internets infrastructure," but you seem to be saying the most populous country on Earth ALREADY engages in the most restrictive practice contained in these bills. It sounds like another case where the government would not gain a new power, but simply EXERCISE an existing one far more often and broadly, on behalf of a lot more commerical interests.

the whole thing is beyond "hackers/pirates versus law abiding citizens". the whole thing is literally going to destroy the internet as we currently know it and put the absolute control of how the internet works into the attorney general's hands forever. you really need to read up on (a) the contents of sopa/pipa and (b) how DNS works, specifically how DNS "poisoning" works. then come back and re-read your replies in this thread and see how wrong you are.

The whole thing SHOULD be beyond "hackers/pirates versus law abiding citizens" but as long as it is reduced to big commercial lobbies pushing draconian legislation versus hackers advocating cyberanarchy, it will not be. In that debate, guess whom the government will support every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

As far as "changing the internet as we know it," well, it would hardly be the first time. Really, the amount of international public in/output to what is essentially a 40 year old DARPA project is staggering, and huge evidence Big Brother will not arbitrarily trample on the rights of netizens who owe their landscape to it. Yet change is coming, as surely as you no longer plug your phone into a modem and dial up your favorite BBS at a lightning fast 1200 baud rate to read the text only content. The internet has changed many times since we were born, is a lot bigger than even fifteen years ago, and governments regulatory presence WILL change to reflect that. The reasonable and responsible course for anyone concerned by that is to clearly and specifically state the forms they want the presence to take, not demand the government "stay out of" an internet it created, over which it has always retained authority within its borders and that only subsists by government sufferance.

You cannot prevent new legislation; all you can do is control the form it takes. Attempts at the former merely sacrifice all opportunity for the latter. Demanding NO new legislation, that access to and dissemination of copyrighted material be legal, inevitably associates oneself with the wild eyed enarchist hackers demanding the same. Congress and Obama will ignore such demands, as they should, so the best--the ONLY--way to get a better bill than the ones on the table is to submit CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions. If these bills suck, write a better one.

Remember during the debate over Hillarycare, when Phil Graham got a scale from the GAO, slammed down the 20 lb. 2000 page Presidential Healthcare Plan in the well of the Senate and said, "THIS is the Presidents plan"? Remember George Mitchell removing the bill, slamming down the empty scale and saying, "THIS is the Republicans plan"? That is kinda where we are right now; the difference is that this time big business SUPPORTS the current legislation. Congress will ultimately pass and Obama sign what they consider the best legislation available, because "the perfect is the enemy of the good."

Give them a better option, or accept the one they are considering. Those are the sum total of YOUR options.
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This message last edited by Joel on 18/01/2012 at 12:18:45 PM
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English Wikipedia Anti-SOPA Blackout - 17/01/2012 08:31:46 AM 2103 Views
Yeah, man, because currently copyright holders have no recourse, am I right? - 17/01/2012 11:47:35 AM 938 Views
"altering the infrastructure of the Internet so as to render RAFO virtually inaccessible"? - 17/01/2012 08:12:27 PM 1040 Views
I'll go ahead and ask before I get my panties in a bunch: do you understand these bills? - 17/01/2012 09:09:22 PM 1132 Views
I admit I have not looked into it much - 17/01/2012 11:42:30 PM 986 Views
And yet you're still arguing the matter. - 18/01/2012 02:34:04 AM 1092 Views
I love you. *NM* - 18/01/2012 03:41:03 AM 632 Views
heh, thanks. I usually find myself pushing minority opinions. Nice to be "appreciated" for once. *NM* - 18/01/2012 04:01:10 AM 619 Views
Can i second the adulation? - 18/01/2012 04:07:17 AM 823 Views
I too (three?) appreciate the common sense and reasonable explanations. *NM* - 18/01/2012 04:12:59 AM 617 Views
Thanks guys. - 18/01/2012 04:39:00 AM 983 Views
Right, because the argument is not just over THIS bill but, apparently, over ANY bill. - 18/01/2012 11:09:13 AM 988 Views
Alternatives to SOPA/PIPA have been proposed for months now. Please stop arguing this. - 18/01/2012 05:42:10 PM 943 Views
That is really all I ask. - 18/01/2012 06:26:37 PM 976 Views
"sensitive federal content"? Provide a source justifying this claim and it's relevance, please. - 18/01/2012 05:59:47 PM 1006 Views
I would not have thought a source necessary. - 18/01/2012 06:24:44 PM 1001 Views
Okay, I'm with Aemon now. - 18/01/2012 07:36:21 PM 1016 Views
OK. - 18/01/2012 10:16:16 PM 1037 Views
Surreal. It's like you're a spam-bot or something. *NM* - 19/01/2012 01:23:35 AM 750 Views
That was constructive. - 19/01/2012 03:29:53 PM 913 Views
Very nicely summarised. *NM* - 18/01/2012 02:06:02 AM 553 Views
should be interesting - 17/01/2012 12:41:47 PM 862 Views
Could be; depends on a lot of factors. - 17/01/2012 07:38:55 PM 930 Views
See, that's one of the biggest problems that people aren't understanding. - 17/01/2012 09:31:38 PM 946 Views
So tell them that. - 17/01/2012 11:54:19 PM 1092 Views
Could've done without the snide rejoinder, but, good. - 17/01/2012 02:20:08 PM 866 Views
I love the black banner, like some kind of internet Holocaust. - 17/01/2012 08:03:27 PM 1005 Views
Are you aware that SOPA/PIPA has nothing to do with hackers and everything to do with copyright? - 18/01/2012 02:08:56 AM 846 Views
There seems to be some overlap. - 18/01/2012 01:08:22 PM 970 Views
Re: There seems to be some overlap. - 18/01/2012 08:13:15 PM 840 Views
Er, what Ghav said. - 18/01/2012 02:30:37 AM 871 Views
Sorry, protecting Pirate Bay and offshore gambling are not compelling counterarguments. - 18/01/2012 11:38:08 AM 912 Views
Okay, another analogy: - 18/01/2012 02:04:12 PM 897 Views
joel, you need to consider three things - 18/01/2012 06:06:16 AM 952 Views
You need to consider that they WILL pass some legislation, and what you want it to contain. - 18/01/2012 12:15:38 PM 1000 Views
A technical examination of SOPA and PROTECT IP - 18/01/2012 08:32:44 AM 876 Views
"As a disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, I'm a sysadmin." - 18/01/2012 12:47:16 PM 1136 Views
wow, you are totally correct! - 18/01/2012 03:45:54 PM 905 Views
That is a separate issue. - 18/01/2012 04:01:24 PM 905 Views
Thank you for posting that. - 18/01/2012 03:09:07 PM 924 Views
Wikipedia has already convinced me - 18/01/2012 03:26:01 PM 757 Views
Trying to stop this legislation without proposing an alternative is trying to stop ANY legislation. - 18/01/2012 03:44:18 PM 981 Views
It isn't their job to propose legislation - 18/01/2012 04:12:53 PM 902 Views
No, but they have as much RIGHT to do so as anyone else. - 18/01/2012 05:31:55 PM 879 Views
Strike three. - 18/01/2012 05:37:55 PM 939 Views
That is fine; that is what people SHOULD be doing. - 18/01/2012 06:03:59 PM 754 Views
Things being better now than they would be under SOPA seems like a legitimate argument to me - 18/01/2012 09:04:18 PM 1017 Views
Against SOPA, sure; against ANY new law, no. - 18/01/2012 10:46:48 PM 862 Views
Re: Against SOPA, sure; against ANY new law, no. - 19/01/2012 12:15:48 AM 933 Views
That is a poor approach to drafting legislation, at best. - 19/01/2012 04:37:22 PM 973 Views
About "proposing new legislation" - 18/01/2012 04:45:08 PM 1017 Views
So true - 18/01/2012 05:08:45 PM 954 Views
Not to go off on a tangent about combatting piracy... - 18/01/2012 05:38:12 PM 855 Views
Entirely agree *NM* - 18/01/2012 06:13:13 PM 607 Views
That was an excellent post. *NM* - 19/01/2012 11:18:19 PM 585 Views
Re: About "proposing new legislation" - 18/01/2012 05:59:55 PM 1092 Views
For those who want a short, one page explanation... - 18/01/2012 05:41:49 PM 884 Views
Yeah, so I use Russian wikipedia for a day. Or German wikipedia, or French, or Italian... *NM* - 18/01/2012 06:23:36 PM 670 Views
We get it: You are a polyglot. - 18/01/2012 06:27:48 PM 875 Views
Or just hit stop right before the script runs. *NM* - 18/01/2012 06:52:40 PM 654 Views
Or just disable Java. *NM* - 19/01/2012 01:58:03 AM 516 Views
That's not as much fun though. *NM* - 19/01/2012 02:13:44 AM 644 Views
Exactly, this way its kind of a game. *NM* - 19/01/2012 02:20:37 AM 458 Views
Or Answers.com, or even the actual sources that are often copy/pasted into Wikipedia... - 19/01/2012 01:07:38 AM 1003 Views
They all did it on twitter - 19/01/2012 01:26:19 AM 938 Views
I was asleep much of the day - 19/01/2012 02:40:11 AM 995 Views
Oh, no; now Congress will be inundated with complaints from lazy college students! - 19/01/2012 04:40:12 PM 1026 Views
13 previously unopposed senators now do not support SOPA. - 19/01/2012 11:36:15 PM 987 Views
How does that "rebutt" what was a facetious post in the first place? - 20/01/2012 09:24:27 PM 1087 Views
a joke can, indeed, be rebutted... - 21/01/2012 09:07:32 PM 974 Views
Oh, draggie, I ALWAYS see what you do there. - 21/01/2012 10:01:58 PM 932 Views

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