For the record I do serve as a poll judge and happen to be rather friendly with just about everyone who works for my local board of elections, and can name off the top of my head every single form of acceptable ID allowed under Ohio law... so be very careful implying ignorance on my part.
Your 5-year old article with obvious bias and tilt from the hack rag that is the NY Times is not, in my opinion, worth the time to read, though I have in fact read it before. It's been cited before, it's been criticized and dissected before. It also predates many of the 2008 election scandals and fraud that tend to be considered pivotal reasons why voter fraud should be a concern. Every aspect of that article is distortive, that questionable cases were prosecuted is not something that should be swept under the rug but is not relevant to what the laws should be and is raised purely to evoke sympathy or criticize the laws where a lack of reasonable arguments against them exist. Even the one cited, what bullshit is that, a felon accidentally voted? By the way, Prude was originally in jail for forgery, so it is not surprising someone might take a skeptical view of a forger attempting to vote, that's not usually a crime committed by people too ignorant to know well-know things like felons typically not being able to vote. Further, she was not a random citizen, she was a campaign volunteer actively involved in calling people to get them signed up for absentee ballots... do you seriously think she has an excuse for not knowing that she had no business voting absentee, especially considering she had a paid position with a get-out-the-vote group?
Now, under current law, since I defend current law and object to widening it - and would point out that citing low voter fraud under the current law even if true wouldn't be pertinent to voter fraud under possible new less restrictive laws - I can not picture a set of circumstances where a reasonable person could be denied the opportunity to vote. Those who forget their ID and have to go back for it but don't have the time do not interest me, for one thing, nobody has much legitimate cause walking let alone driving around without an ID, the latter of which is generally illegal and the former exhibits a great lack of common sense... a trait I generally prefer in voters. Even if they can't do that, most states (probably all but definitely mine) allow a person to vote on the spot provisionally then have ten day to go to the board of elections to prove they are who they claimed. So for that tiny fraction of people who don't have any of the various, often free, forms of ID, they can just swing by the BoE and provide it anytime in the next week and validate their vote. Any implication that our current laws are not fair is in my opinion suspect, implying lack of understanding or ulterior motive.
Your 5-year old article with obvious bias and tilt from the hack rag that is the NY Times is not, in my opinion, worth the time to read, though I have in fact read it before. It's been cited before, it's been criticized and dissected before. It also predates many of the 2008 election scandals and fraud that tend to be considered pivotal reasons why voter fraud should be a concern. Every aspect of that article is distortive, that questionable cases were prosecuted is not something that should be swept under the rug but is not relevant to what the laws should be and is raised purely to evoke sympathy or criticize the laws where a lack of reasonable arguments against them exist. Even the one cited, what bullshit is that, a felon accidentally voted? By the way, Prude was originally in jail for forgery, so it is not surprising someone might take a skeptical view of a forger attempting to vote, that's not usually a crime committed by people too ignorant to know well-know things like felons typically not being able to vote. Further, she was not a random citizen, she was a campaign volunteer actively involved in calling people to get them signed up for absentee ballots... do you seriously think she has an excuse for not knowing that she had no business voting absentee, especially considering she had a paid position with a get-out-the-vote group?
Now, under current law, since I defend current law and object to widening it - and would point out that citing low voter fraud under the current law even if true wouldn't be pertinent to voter fraud under possible new less restrictive laws - I can not picture a set of circumstances where a reasonable person could be denied the opportunity to vote. Those who forget their ID and have to go back for it but don't have the time do not interest me, for one thing, nobody has much legitimate cause walking let alone driving around without an ID, the latter of which is generally illegal and the former exhibits a great lack of common sense... a trait I generally prefer in voters. Even if they can't do that, most states (probably all but definitely mine) allow a person to vote on the spot provisionally then have ten day to go to the board of elections to prove they are who they claimed. So for that tiny fraction of people who don't have any of the various, often free, forms of ID, they can just swing by the BoE and provide it anytime in the next week and validate their vote. Any implication that our current laws are not fair is in my opinion suspect, implying lack of understanding or ulterior motive.
(Or maybe it's two)...I agree with you that our (OH's) current laws are not unfair. Do you support further restricting them to require a photo ID specifically though? Is there a photo ID that would be acceptable for voting purposes that OH residents can obtain for free? My personal opinion is that both fraud and barriers to vote are important to consider. I'd be more readily in favor of photo ID requirements (which seem like such a no-brainer in this day and age) if, as Joel says, there were state-issued photo IDs conveniently available and at no cost.
I have a more general question about absentee ballots and how those figure into these types of conversations, but I think I'll post that in the main thread.
If you are from Betelgeuse, please have one of your Earth friends read what I've written before you respond. Or try concentrating harder.
"The trophy problem has become extreme."
"The trophy problem has become extreme."
How does requiring photo ID disenfranchise the black/minority community?
15/01/2012 05:14:16 PM
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From what I understand ...
15/01/2012 05:34:39 PM
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but you need a photo ID for so many other things
15/01/2012 05:42:06 PM
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Well.
15/01/2012 05:53:04 PM
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The SCOTUS disagrees with you.
16/01/2012 03:14:57 AM
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I didn't even need to show a voter regestration card last time I voted *NM*
16/01/2012 11:45:23 PM
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That is kind of pathetic.
17/01/2012 06:45:19 AM
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It "disenfranchises" whoever only barely brings him- or herself to vote as it is.
15/01/2012 05:34:50 PM
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That really only reinforces the idea to me that this is just people looking to fight about something *NM*
15/01/2012 05:45:37 PM
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I think that's an exaggeration, but to play devil's advocate...
15/01/2012 05:41:10 PM
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it doesn't strike me as a very big layer to add. *NM*
15/01/2012 05:43:37 PM
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Someone presents a poll worker a non-DL photo ID.
15/01/2012 05:48:50 PM
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i suppose that would get complicated if you tried to make it nice and flexible. *NM*
15/01/2012 06:09:13 PM
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It doesn't, really. The issue gets politicized due to a long memory of "Jim Crow".
15/01/2012 06:19:37 PM
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Yah, my mom brought up Jim Crow laws. It's a fair point, at least in regards to the reaction
15/01/2012 06:22:36 PM
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This is a remarkably calm and reasonable political discussion. What's going on? *NM*
15/01/2012 08:05:30 PM
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It is not a black and white issue
16/01/2012 01:07:14 AM
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I prefer to think i'm magical. *NM*
16/01/2012 01:20:49 AM
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I don't see any cat nearby, thus no magic was used *nods* *NM*
16/01/2012 01:28:50 AM
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that's too obvious.
16/01/2012 02:48:29 AM
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You did not just compare a cat to a rabbit
16/01/2012 03:07:49 AM
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have you ever had a rabbit?
16/01/2012 03:25:26 AM
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A cat would never lower itself assumming the form of a fluffy rabbit
16/01/2012 12:49:26 PM
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that's just what they want you to think.
16/01/2012 02:34:48 PM
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Viscous does not mean Magical
16/01/2012 02:45:10 PM
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Actually i'm pretty sure my rabbits scratch me because they're furry bastards. *NM*
16/01/2012 04:28:57 PM
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well for one thing she didn't start out by insulting people who disagree with her
16/01/2012 02:09:24 AM
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Not that I care much either way, but please, answer this:
15/01/2012 09:26:23 PM
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definitely not. However, ID cards are free in South Carolina.
15/01/2012 09:33:06 PM
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You could walk. *NM*
16/01/2012 06:31:58 AM
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Oh I could, theoretically. Although this year, my poll is a good 7 miles away
16/01/2012 08:45:42 AM
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7 miles away, isn't that illegal? *NM*
16/01/2012 05:35:50 PM
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probably, but not really at the same time. It's my own fault regardless.
16/01/2012 10:46:06 PM
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Illegal? My polling location is > 7 miles from my permanent residence.
17/01/2012 12:19:21 AM
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No, and there's is no place in the US that is the case
16/01/2012 12:11:36 AM
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It disenfranchises the dead/illegal aliens/people who vote multiple times...
16/01/2012 02:01:47 AM
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Short answer: Yes. (Let me know if you want the long answer.) *NM*
16/01/2012 07:52:36 PM
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that would be interesting. *NM*
16/01/2012 08:45:24 PM
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By that, I assume you want to know. (But probably not as interesting as you think.)
17/01/2012 02:46:16 PM
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I don't see how it does
15/01/2012 10:22:29 PM
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Re: I don't see how it does
15/01/2012 10:57:20 PM
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I believe most states also offer a non-drivers ID issued by the DMV
16/01/2012 12:12:09 AM
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Cool. I wonder if Canada has those. I should check into that. *NM*
16/01/2012 12:35:39 AM
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Also passports work too in most places. *NM*
16/01/2012 06:59:51 PM
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those are far far from economical or practical compared to state IDs *NM*
16/01/2012 07:12:30 PM
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It is a catch 22 situation, the free id is not a perfect solution
16/01/2012 12:53:11 AM
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Also you can't claim voter fraud is a big problem
16/01/2012 12:57:18 AM
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can you prove that voter fraud is not a problem?
16/01/2012 02:04:52 AM
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In 5 years of investigation, 120 people were charged national with voter fraud, 86 were convincted
16/01/2012 02:33:07 AM
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That's smoke and mirrors
16/01/2012 01:51:34 PM
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It seems you didn't read the article, or understand its point
16/01/2012 02:39:39 PM
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You are still ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to catch people on the current system
16/01/2012 03:52:42 PM
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I suspect I know a good deal more of this subject than the author of your 5-year old article
16/01/2012 05:37:54 PM
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Question for you
16/01/2012 06:01:09 PM
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I'd prefer photo-ID only but I don't see too great a need.
16/01/2012 06:37:13 PM
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becuase they would then be limited to voting once and all of ACRON's work would be wasted *NM*
16/01/2012 01:46:06 AM
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Not to mention it might stop some of those pesky dead people that keep showing up. Every Year. *NM*
16/01/2012 02:44:42 PM
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Hey now. Zombies are people too, and deserve to have their opinions noted. *NM*
17/01/2012 10:23:15 PM
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I guess you havn't been watching the Walking Dead *NM*
18/01/2012 07:09:34 PM
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Nate's one of those Farmer Hershel types. *NM*
18/01/2012 10:02:48 PM
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Just a guess but I don't think things will end well for the farmer *NM*
19/01/2012 07:09:45 PM
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If provided gratis, it does not; otherwise, it is a poll tax (illegal under federal law.)
16/01/2012 02:39:40 AM
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Re: How does requiring photo ID disenfranchise the black/minority community?
16/01/2012 02:42:28 PM
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I do think that fraud/raising barriers to vote need to be weighed against each other.
16/01/2012 06:20:23 PM
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I remember the Bush/Gore Fiasco back in 2000, Florida and Democrats pissed off the overseas military
16/01/2012 06:56:39 PM
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I'm not reading the article but...
17/01/2012 09:48:27 AM
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maybe there's no excuse in your area
17/01/2012 03:05:53 PM
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I think when you get to such extreme examples, the point often becomes moot.
18/01/2012 07:26:10 PM
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Re: I think when you get to such extreme examples, the point often becomes moot.
21/01/2012 02:44:56 AM
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What? I'm the only one who cares?
18/01/2012 02:14:28 AM
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Yes, just you, the rest of us have been discussing baseball this entire time *NM*
18/01/2012 02:41:25 AM
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I'm the only one who cares with fervor in a non nuanced way ok? *NM*
18/01/2012 03:07:07 AM
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imo, fervor has no place in political discussion
18/01/2012 02:35:56 PM
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And yet, it finds its way or it's not politics.
18/01/2012 06:28:08 PM
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That doesn't mean that's the best or most productive discussion manner
18/01/2012 06:59:09 PM
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Strong feelings on a topic don't have to translate to fervent discussion, all caps style.
18/01/2012 08:50:45 PM
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What?
18/01/2012 03:57:10 PM
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What about those who don't have an id and have been voting fine before?
18/01/2012 06:06:19 PM
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the problem with that last point is...
18/01/2012 09:05:43 PM
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Yes.
18/01/2012 09:32:25 PM
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That example is a lot different to what I'm talking about though.
18/01/2012 10:51:21 PM
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It's not that different and it's a concrete example of something that happened quite recently.
18/01/2012 11:43:24 PM
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What's your real question?
18/01/2012 05:07:30 PM
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Question mark notwithstanding, there was no question.
18/01/2012 06:16:46 PM
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Be outraged. Be passionate. Be surprised.
19/01/2012 05:42:37 PM
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I've had enough, looking forward to insulting everyone again in a couple months or so.
19/01/2012 06:06:19 PM
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