Well, and I would have expected a lot more nuance from you. Your response was worthless.
Tom Send a noteboard - 15/01/2012 04:40:57 PM
If you had posted the immediately preceding response as your initial one I could have discussed it. "Worst post ever" is seriously extreme hyperbole and doesn't even bother to take the time to refute anything in any meaningful way.
My moral paradigm is not "militant western democracy". Although I, raised in a pluralistic secular democracy, was appalled at the Taliban when they oppressed women, murdered people for not following a tyrannical brand of Islam, blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas and destroyed thousands of priceless works of art in the Kabul museum, and engaged in lots of other reprehensible conduct that would take an entire book to catalogue, I saw no reason for the United States to intervene in the way they were oppressing their own people. Just as we don't invade nations like Zimbabwe or Burma simply because they butcher, torture and starve their own people, it made no sense, up to 8:45 am on September 11, 2001, to even consider wasting time, effort, human lives and billions of dollars fighting a regime that did not seem to pose a threat to the United States or have any strategic value for us whatsoever.
I'm not interested in seeing the United States forcibly forward the interests of democracy in any foreign country, and Iraq is a wonderful example of how democracy cannot be imposed on a people from without. I personally think that Karzai probably should have been removed by the US military years ago as he's one of the most corrupt and mendacious people we could have chosen. I also think that the US should have taken the opportunity, presented years ago, to align itself solidly with the moderate Northern Alliance since it was clear that the Taliban and Pashtuns were a near synonym. In short, if we had taken sides in the Afghan Civil War from the start, we would have had better success. Treating the Pashtuns as the enemy would have been better.
It also would have let us partition Afghanistan along ethnic lines, and then tell Pakistan that it could occupy Pashtun regions, something that Pakistan would probably have been happy to do - they want the "strategic depth" and could have gotten rich off the opium trade.
But enough about the fact that I'm more a "realpolitik" sort of asshole rather than a touchy-feely "we want to give you the gift of democracy" sort of person.
The simple fact is that there is ample evidence that the Taliban regime was not simply providing safe haven to al-Qaeda - it was in bed with al-Qaeda. The Taliban bear direct responsibility for attacking the United States and murdering thousands of innocent Americans in addition to the tens of thousands of innocent Afghans they murdered (and continue to murder). Intentional targeting of civilians, intentionally murdering people who are trying to teach little girls in Afghanistan, horrendous torture - nothing the United States has done can, by any objective standard, come close to where they are.
So am I comfortable portraying them as "bad"? Yes. Does that mean that everything the US troops do is "good"? No. However, something as minor, in the grand scheme of things, as pissing on a couple of corpses, is not a "moral" problem for me.
For the record, in the past I've expressed the opinion that cemeteries are a waste of space and that cremation should be the only legal means of disposing of corpses. Corpses are a rarified form of garbage that we deal with differently out of memories of the person who used to be there.
It's not the most offensive thing I've ever read, here or there, but also the source: I would have expected a little more from you. It seems ill-considered.
You feel that your moral paradigm, militant western democracy, is greater than the Taliban's moral paradigm, militant Islamic theology. Well, that's fine: I actually agree with that. But there's a reason that human beings have come up with certain codes of conduct, for instance, the Geneva Convention, to codify the operations of war. Within that codification, to which our military subscribes, we recognize the inherent immorality of the desecration of dead human bodies. We say it's an immoral thing to do, whether it's done by our enemies or done by our own soliders, and we recognize that certain acts go above the finger pointing of "this side is worst than that side", and are inherently, universally "wrong". You're shrugging that off and saying that this immoral act is okay, because those other guys are so immoral, which unravels the whole ball of string. If the Taliban were pissing on the flag-draped bodies of dead marines, you'd very likely be upset. I find either circumstance incredibly disturbing and base, and "wrong".
(If you come up with something interesting in response, I might reply. Ad hom and I'm all set, as I'm reading Sex at Dawn and it's super engaging.)
My moral paradigm is not "militant western democracy". Although I, raised in a pluralistic secular democracy, was appalled at the Taliban when they oppressed women, murdered people for not following a tyrannical brand of Islam, blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas and destroyed thousands of priceless works of art in the Kabul museum, and engaged in lots of other reprehensible conduct that would take an entire book to catalogue, I saw no reason for the United States to intervene in the way they were oppressing their own people. Just as we don't invade nations like Zimbabwe or Burma simply because they butcher, torture and starve their own people, it made no sense, up to 8:45 am on September 11, 2001, to even consider wasting time, effort, human lives and billions of dollars fighting a regime that did not seem to pose a threat to the United States or have any strategic value for us whatsoever.
I'm not interested in seeing the United States forcibly forward the interests of democracy in any foreign country, and Iraq is a wonderful example of how democracy cannot be imposed on a people from without. I personally think that Karzai probably should have been removed by the US military years ago as he's one of the most corrupt and mendacious people we could have chosen. I also think that the US should have taken the opportunity, presented years ago, to align itself solidly with the moderate Northern Alliance since it was clear that the Taliban and Pashtuns were a near synonym. In short, if we had taken sides in the Afghan Civil War from the start, we would have had better success. Treating the Pashtuns as the enemy would have been better.
It also would have let us partition Afghanistan along ethnic lines, and then tell Pakistan that it could occupy Pashtun regions, something that Pakistan would probably have been happy to do - they want the "strategic depth" and could have gotten rich off the opium trade.
But enough about the fact that I'm more a "realpolitik" sort of asshole rather than a touchy-feely "we want to give you the gift of democracy" sort of person.
The simple fact is that there is ample evidence that the Taliban regime was not simply providing safe haven to al-Qaeda - it was in bed with al-Qaeda. The Taliban bear direct responsibility for attacking the United States and murdering thousands of innocent Americans in addition to the tens of thousands of innocent Afghans they murdered (and continue to murder). Intentional targeting of civilians, intentionally murdering people who are trying to teach little girls in Afghanistan, horrendous torture - nothing the United States has done can, by any objective standard, come close to where they are.
So am I comfortable portraying them as "bad"? Yes. Does that mean that everything the US troops do is "good"? No. However, something as minor, in the grand scheme of things, as pissing on a couple of corpses, is not a "moral" problem for me.
For the record, in the past I've expressed the opinion that cemeteries are a waste of space and that cremation should be the only legal means of disposing of corpses. Corpses are a rarified form of garbage that we deal with differently out of memories of the person who used to be there.
Considering what I've seen at this site, the simple expression of an opinion that I personally feel no moral outrage that corpses of enemies of the US are pissed on by soldiers is hardly the worst post ever.
If it isn't rampant hyperbole, you're complete idiots.
It's not the most offensive thing I've ever read, here or there, but also the source: I would have expected a little more from you. It seems ill-considered.
You feel that your moral paradigm, militant western democracy, is greater than the Taliban's moral paradigm, militant Islamic theology. Well, that's fine: I actually agree with that. But there's a reason that human beings have come up with certain codes of conduct, for instance, the Geneva Convention, to codify the operations of war. Within that codification, to which our military subscribes, we recognize the inherent immorality of the desecration of dead human bodies. We say it's an immoral thing to do, whether it's done by our enemies or done by our own soliders, and we recognize that certain acts go above the finger pointing of "this side is worst than that side", and are inherently, universally "wrong". You're shrugging that off and saying that this immoral act is okay, because those other guys are so immoral, which unravels the whole ball of string. If the Taliban were pissing on the flag-draped bodies of dead marines, you'd very likely be upset. I find either circumstance incredibly disturbing and base, and "wrong".
(If you come up with something interesting in response, I might reply. Ad hom and I'm all set, as I'm reading Sex at Dawn and it's super engaging.)
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Am I the only one who doesn't care if the Marines piss on the corpses of Taliban?
13/01/2012 03:28:08 PM
- 1701 Views
Probably not the only one.
13/01/2012 03:51:18 PM
- 1016 Views
Actually, IIRC, we were told the Afghanistan war was important because of the Talibans threat to us.
14/01/2012 11:18:28 PM
- 716 Views
Yes, that was part of it. Of course. AND we were going to help bring democracy.
15/01/2012 12:42:57 AM
- 689 Views
If we have time, sure.
15/01/2012 10:18:31 PM
- 820 Views
ooookay. *NM*
16/01/2012 12:12:06 AM
- 404 Views
?
16/01/2012 01:17:37 AM
- 749 Views
Re: ?
16/01/2012 12:22:39 PM
- 738 Views
I quite agree with Joel on this point (frightening as that admission may be).
16/01/2012 02:01:05 PM
- 739 Views
Doesn't matter.
16/01/2012 02:33:53 PM
- 738 Views
Your definition of "terrible thing" seems quite elastic.
16/01/2012 07:21:12 PM
- 657 Views
It undermines one of our stated goals, sure, but that particular goal was bunk from the outset.
17/01/2012 06:50:11 AM
- 817 Views
I am pissed at them
13/01/2012 06:00:56 PM
- 1020 Views
Congratulations: You are now where a LOT of Americans have been on a LOT of US policy over the years
14/01/2012 07:43:24 AM
- 831 Views
Congratulations you have again missed the point
14/01/2012 05:06:24 PM
- 740 Views
Not at all, you have just evidently decided it is relevant now that the President is a Democrat.
14/01/2012 11:04:17 PM
- 952 Views
Joel, you're full of shit in this particular case
16/01/2012 12:05:54 AM
- 977 Views
Let's edit slightly: Joel, you're full of shit in this particular case
16/01/2012 12:57:22 AM
- 772 Views
He is applying a double standard, a practice I dislike intensely.
16/01/2012 01:15:05 AM
- 775 Views
no Joel you just can't see passed your politics
16/01/2012 02:15:51 AM
- 799 Views
I recall your disappointment in the soldiers then, but also your rejection of the view you took here
16/01/2012 02:27:36 AM
- 697 Views
I don't think that urinating on a dead body reflects well on anyone.
13/01/2012 07:47:20 PM
- 667 Views
Its indicitive of a breakdown in discipline and the erosion of the values of the corps.
13/01/2012 09:57:15 PM
- 888 Views
I thought this WAS the issue at hand. I haven't paid much attention to this story. *NM*
14/01/2012 12:00:53 AM
- 409 Views
I have a strong feeling that this was not the worst that's been done to those bodies
13/01/2012 10:43:34 PM
- 802 Views
Apparently the Taliban aren't too put out by it. They're still willing to negotiate and talk.
14/01/2012 01:32:59 AM
- 675 Views
Professional soldiers need to consider the impact of their actions on the cause
14/01/2012 08:25:30 AM
- 652 Views
Awful. Worst post ever. *NM*
14/01/2012 05:12:41 PM
- 560 Views
That's absurdly stupid of both of you. Expression of legitimate opinion hardly qualifies as "worst"
14/01/2012 08:46:30 PM
- 722 Views
it is our OPINION that this is the worst post ever.
14/01/2012 11:32:49 PM
- 716 Views
Wow. Remind me to point this out the next time Dragonsoul attacks you.
15/01/2012 02:52:47 AM
- 736 Views
im a little surprised that you are this offended by us calling your post the worst ever. *NM*
15/01/2012 03:52:51 AM
- 443 Views
Given the shit I've seen and the miserable way you've expressed yourself, I'm surprised.
15/01/2012 04:42:41 PM
- 664 Views
I agree worst post ever is one hell of a high bar
15/01/2012 03:52:42 AM
- 742 Views
Seriously, I once posted nude pics of a chat admins wife and THIS is the worst post ever? *NM*
15/01/2012 05:28:32 AM
- 390 Views
Personally, I expected a little more nuance from you.
15/01/2012 03:52:24 PM
- 1011 Views
Well, and I would have expected a lot more nuance from you. Your response was worthless.
15/01/2012 04:40:57 PM
- 890 Views
moral?
14/01/2012 09:53:01 PM
- 805 Views
I agree it was stupid to record it, and a breach of policy.
14/01/2012 11:05:49 PM
- 681 Views
im just baffled
14/01/2012 11:36:32 PM
- 707 Views
Well, in the future you can expect it.
15/01/2012 02:54:59 AM
- 692 Views
nobody said you had to cry about it....just acknowledge its a fucked up thing to do
15/01/2012 03:38:29 AM
- 664 Views
This shows that you are a bit of a sociopath *NM*
15/01/2012 08:08:39 AM
- 366 Views
You're still upset I called American girls prudes.
15/01/2012 04:43:31 PM
- 630 Views
I had forgotten you called American girls prudes
16/01/2012 10:22:50 AM
- 713 Views
You're right, I'm not really bothered.
16/01/2012 09:18:50 PM
- 1072 Views
There are all kinds of rationalizations why peeing on dead bodies isn't that bad in the grand
17/01/2012 10:32:45 PM
- 1041 Views
What is it about this post that is bringing the mediocre intellectuals out of the woodwork? *NM*
17/01/2012 03:18:29 AM
- 384 Views
as someone said on the radio recently...
16/01/2012 08:41:25 PM
- 722 Views
They aren't conditioned to murder, much less "in cold blood"
16/01/2012 09:15:54 PM
- 799 Views