You do know that they initiated violence at Kent State, right?
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 20/11/2011 02:45:57 PM
Not that I am saying it was justified against people just passively sitting there, but you have to admit it was not exactly Kent State all over again. To be fair, this is the first I have heard of it, so I do not know much about the context or the full extent of the incident; I did find it interesting when I googled it just now that even the article on it in the notoriously conservative Washington Times was fairly critical (and, for anyone unaware of what that means, while I was there I saw a link to another times article on "Obamas denigrate America tour.")
Pretty much never, though there have been some surprising examples of the people responsible walking away unscathed. The Bonus Army is the one that always comes to mind for me: Douglas MacArthur ordered the army to attack (twice,) George Patton led a cavalry charge against a tent city occupied by veterans and their families and both men went on to fame and glory in the Second World War a decade later.
Of course, all of that goes out the window as soon as any protestor initiates violence, and even defensive violence can destroy public support if it is not VERY CLEARLY self defence. At that point the moral highground is lost and the protest is guaranteed a status somewhere between the Haymarket Riots and John Browns raid on Harpers Ferry.
You mean insluting and demeaning to the legacy of hippies? I dunno; in retrospect I cannot help feeling a lot of hippies were just spoiled middle class draft dodgers who wanted to get wasted and laid, and as soon as they no longer had to fear the draft they bought in, piled on and sold out.
Of course, what really irritates me is that people seem to have no historical context. Like, take a look at any of the giant protest movements over the last 100 years. When, in ANY of them, has the history sided with "police officers who attack unarmed protesters?"
Pretty much never, though there have been some surprising examples of the people responsible walking away unscathed. The Bonus Army is the one that always comes to mind for me: Douglas MacArthur ordered the army to attack (twice,) George Patton led a cavalry charge against a tent city occupied by veterans and their families and both men went on to fame and glory in the Second World War a decade later.
Of course, all of that goes out the window as soon as any protestor initiates violence, and even defensive violence can destroy public support if it is not VERY CLEARLY self defence. At that point the moral highground is lost and the protest is guaranteed a status somewhere between the Haymarket Riots and John Browns raid on Harpers Ferry.
Also, people using the word "hippie" simply because they're protesters. It's 2011, that's like calling anyone in a Starbucks a "beatnik."
Ugh.
Ugh.
You mean insluting and demeaning to the legacy of hippies? I dunno; in retrospect I cannot help feeling a lot of hippies were just spoiled middle class draft dodgers who wanted to get wasted and laid, and as soon as they no longer had to fear the draft they bought in, piled on and sold out.
As most of the Occupy Wall Street protestors' objection to materialism and capitalist greed is their inability to participate. There is nothing admirable here, just a bunch of petty, immature losers acting on an unwarranted sense of entitlement, and almost certainly from the same demographic that was so excited three years ago about the Hope and Change candidate, sponsored by the same financial community they protest today. What is more, this whole notion of "Occupying" Wall Street serves only to interfere with other members of the 99%, as the majority of people who work on Wall Street are, as well as the ones most directly impacted by the stock market's failures. Protesting a bad economy at Wall Street is like protesting a military defeat at an army base - you might be upset about the ripples you're feeling, but you're acting on it by harassing those whose very livelihoods are concerned with those events, and who have probably lost friends and colleagues as well.
As far as the violence and so forth goes, the narrative crafted after the fact will reflect what those writing it want it to. Someone mentioned historical context in this thread, but they are just stringing together a bunch of unrelated protests, and not looking at the individual contexts of those. For example, Martin Luther King Jr's march on Selma was against the advice of all sorts of civil rights leaders, including the black community of Selma, because for all intents and purposes, they had already won. Instead, his glory-seeking march sparked excessive retaliation from Bull Connors and revitalized his lame-duck career, rallying the support of opponents of the civil rights movement, not to mention drawing down the violence on children and other human shields King incited to march. His own obnoxious behavior does not justify what was done in response, but after the fact, the narrative reflects this pointless & unnecessary conflict which only served to inflate the reputations of the irresponsible leaders on both sides, is reflected as a grand triumph after the fact.
Likewise at Kent State, it was hardly like the National Guard marched in and started randomly gunning down hippies. It was in the aftermath of attacks on guardsmen, of female demonstrators feeding them drugged snacks and the shooting itself was precipitated by someone throwing stuff at them. Yet history remembers them as the wrongdoers.
When race riots were sweeping the country, Chicago was largely spared (as were most of the cities in the South), because of Mayor Daley's expressed willingness to allow the police to shoot back in the eventuality.
Lets all try to remember that this country was founded by men like John Adams who defended the soldiers who shot at the mobs in the Boston Massacre, not by the "demonstrators".
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
An Open Letter to Police Officers Across America
20/11/2011 03:27:46 AM
- 1303 Views
Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.
20/11/2011 03:59:42 AM
- 781 Views
I am forced to agree.
20/11/2011 04:37:07 AM
- 616 Views
You're right, but stuff like what just happened at UC Davis makes my blood boil
20/11/2011 05:52:11 AM
- 598 Views
As such things go, that does not seem too bad to me.
20/11/2011 06:14:54 AM
- 779 Views
You do know that they initiated violence at Kent State, right?
20/11/2011 02:45:57 PM
- 588 Views
I'm going to start a counter protest with "Bring back the Pinkertons" signs...
20/11/2011 05:19:19 AM
- 566 Views
One of the most poorly written pieces of shit I've read in a long time. *NM*
20/11/2011 06:30:29 AM
- 354 Views
Declaring people "enemy combatants" means they get to treat you as such too.
20/11/2011 01:55:51 PM
- 581 Views
Don't cloud the propaganda with logic, Tim!
20/11/2011 04:16:05 PM
- 614 Views
That's the problem with a two-party system: it's practically impossible to form a new party. *NM*
20/11/2011 05:42:39 PM
- 250 Views
And implicit in my statement above is the following addendum
20/11/2011 06:14:40 PM
- 739 Views
I agree with that. However, many seem to think that means it's OK to beat them up.
20/11/2011 06:21:05 PM
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Only if they resist arrest, and then the force must be proportionate. *NM*
20/11/2011 09:52:39 PM
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If they resist a lawful arrest, sure. *NM*
21/11/2011 11:11:11 AM
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they are breaking the law so it is lawful to arrest them *NM*
21/11/2011 10:46:18 PM
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In what way?
22/11/2011 09:12:01 AM
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Resisting arrest. Duh. *NM*
22/11/2011 10:11:04 AM
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They have to be doing something else before you can lawfully arrest them.
22/11/2011 10:30:05 AM
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Then they should be doing what the police say. Because that's the law. *NM*
22/11/2011 02:28:00 PM
- 288 Views
You're a smart guy, Ghavrel. You can't seriously think you have to do *anything* the police say.
22/11/2011 03:05:06 PM
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You are not allowed to just block sidewalks and camp wherever you want
22/11/2011 01:54:42 PM
- 567 Views
Most, if not all, of the arrests have been lawful.
22/11/2011 01:24:55 AM
- 542 Views
Can you tell me any more about this permit system? *NM*
22/11/2011 10:04:35 AM
- 257 Views
Thereby hangs the tale, indeed; I would also be interested in Toms elaboration on that.
23/11/2011 08:54:53 AM
- 610 Views
(OWS isn't anti-capitalism)
20/11/2011 06:39:37 PM
- 530 Views
It's almost impossible for you to say what OWS is when it refuses to define itself.
20/11/2011 08:44:12 PM
- 593 Views
Re: It's almost impossible for you to say what OWS is when it refuses to define itself.
22/11/2011 04:20:59 AM
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Why are liberals such whiners?
21/11/2011 01:51:03 PM
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There you go again....
21/11/2011 11:05:04 PM
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it is a little hypocritical of the guy who called the Tea Party racsit to talk about broad brushes *NM*
22/11/2011 04:02:56 AM
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One of these days you should try responding to me with more than "that thing you just said? YOU!"
22/11/2011 06:11:20 AM
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one of these days you will respond without going into off topic rants
22/11/2011 02:02:46 PM
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A tangent is not a non sequitur, though in this case I do not feel guilty of either.
23/11/2011 08:12:09 AM
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oh and stop with the the stupid BS about the Fed veing threatened it is getting old
22/11/2011 04:05:10 AM
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Saying a person would not like what one did to him if he came to ones state is a threat.
22/11/2011 06:13:35 AM
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No it is just another pathetic attempt of the left to believe the right are bad guys
22/11/2011 01:50:32 PM
- 476 Views
Saying one will take an unpleasant action against another is a threat, any way you slice it.
23/11/2011 08:17:44 AM
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You've posted this, but you don't seem inclined to defend it, one might ask what the point was?
21/11/2011 05:16:13 PM
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