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Neither; laws requiring everyone do something do NOTHING themselves. Joel Send a noteboard - 20/10/2011 10:10:31 AM
And saying, "everyone must provide their own social security insurance" is abolishing the Social Security system. The formers goal is the latter.
Unless we hold to the idea that any rename or reform is abolishing, and I don't think any of us view that as the case. Privatizing SS recognizes the need force some active role in government pressuring and/or incentivizing saving for one's retirement. One might not agree that it is a good idea but it nevertheless isn't the same as removing it entirely.

That remains my biggest problem with Obama/Romneycare, which provides an illustrative parallel. First and foremost, most people without social security insurance in the '20s had the desire but not the means, just as most people without health insurance now. Giving them "option" of putting money they do not have into retirement plans is no more helpful than Obama/Romneycare is; FORCING them to do so despite the fact they cannot is simply cruel. More to the point, in neither case is an option they already had but could not use a "system" of any kind, private or otherwise. It is not "the ownership society," but the "own"ership society: Taxes aside, everyone is entirely on their own.

You're changing the subject here, and did not address my point. Whether or not privatizing - or any of the other options - is a good idea is a different matter. At the end of the day, calling for football teams to be owned by states or individual large companies, like say Pepsi Pirates as opposed to Oakland Raiders, the Michigan Maulers as opposed to the Detroit Lions, is not tantamount to 'abolishing football'. That doesn't make it a good or bad idea, and you may object to privatizing social security but you do not bother to discuss the merits, merely throw reckless invective at the concept and use terms just as charged and much less accurate as the 'death panels' you raised Holy Hell about to do it while using ALL CAPS, so I'll match you... No serious reform or change can ever take place while we are FORCING anyone who runs for office to tread over eggshells lest they say something that might conceivably scare someone, and the very inevitably of that occurring with any single-source government entitlement is the strongest reason not to have them or ever expand them without the most dire of urgency and necessity.

I am not changing the subject at all, only providing a very illustrative analogy: Privatizing Social Security would result in 1) a federal law that 2) requires all adults 3) meet future costs now with 4) money they do not have, despite 5) no guarantee of receiving ANYTHING later and 6) little to no federal help meeting the federal requirement. That is just Obama/Romneycare for Social Security; when all the same flaws exist, it is unclear why what was so unconscionable for health insurance is suddenly a great idea for social security insurance. The only reason that comes to mind is the same one that loomed large during the healthcare debate: Republicans around the country embraced a GOP governors policy as their savior then declared it anathema when a Democratic president implemented it nationally the way Romney promised in his book. Maybe I should have Obama suggest privatizing Social Security so Republicans turn on THAT awful idea as quickly as they did the other. :rolleyes:

If "the most dire of urgency and necessity" is the requirement for a federal entitlement, I think making sure invalids and/or the elderly do not clog the roads with their corpses once they cease being profitable to private industry qualifies. I am fairly certain you do also; we are not debating the NEED for social security insurance, but the best way to meet it. Acknowledging the undeniable need by requiring people meet it on their own, while making very clear they ARE on their own adds insult to grievous injury. I mean, everyone needs food and shelter, too; why not pass a federal law requiring everyone to get them, and penalize anyone who disobeys? The real problem here is money; why not impose a federal tax penalty on everyone "unwilling" to live above the poverty level? This conceit only those too lazy to take care of themselves die slow tortuous deaths is no longer merely disingenuous: A decade into recession, it is dangerous. People who lost their jobs and homes to the banking and housing disasters then spent a couple trillion tax dollars bailing out the industries responsible will not forever tolerate being told it is all their fault when they know better.

Privatizing the federal Social Security program would not abolish the CONCEPT of social security insurance, but would restrict its availability to those able to provide it for themselves. Were that enough to cover all or even most Americans the federal program would never have been created; people were perfectly able to invest money for retirement in the '20s--IF they had it to spare. Likewise, we already have private retirement accounts with untaxed contributions (IRAs and 401(k)s, the latter usually including some employer contributions) yet they are so inadequate many people still barely (or almost) scrape by on Social Security. Let us be honest: Perry proposes adding NOTHING to the social security equation, but instead removing virtually all of it. He would "fix" Social Security like a vet "fixes" a broken legged horse or a dogs testicles, which is usually my objection when Republicans talk about policy "reform." I know "reform"=/="abolition," but it is an uphill battle convincing Republicans committed to the principle all things federal are bad.

I knew how the GOP felt about the New Deal long before Perry called Social Security a monument to its "failure," but America is not so ignorant a majority wants to return to the Depression (only ignorant enough not to know Hoover coined the term "trickle down theory.") There is nothing wrong with the Social Security that could not have been fixed by not borrowing from it for twenty years, as many (but clearly not ENOUGH) people warned throughout that time. People kept telling us the bill would come due when Boomers retired; they have, and it has. We have ALREADY increased retirement age as Perry proposes, but barring a large non-crippling revenue source it might be wise to do so again since life expectancy has risen in the eight decades since Social Securitys creation. That does not make it a "failure," and calling it a "Ponzi scheme" ignores the facts that

1) Many of those paying in will die before ever collecting a dime of benefits and

2) The number of people paying in will be constantly replenished by the millions of new people entering the labor force each year.

The only major "reform" Social Security needed, however, has already been applied by circumstances: With no money left in the trust fund, we can no longer borrow from it to cover our debt; now we simply need to pay back the $2 trillion we owe the trust fund (the federal governments largest creditor.) Telling the elderly people who financed the two decade long spending spree that they must now tighten their belt would be reprehensible. It is one thing when gramma sends a $10 bill for one birthday and it gets spent on comics; it is quite another to sneak into her house at night with a mask and gun to simply TAKE it.
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So I am curious. What do our site conservatives think of Cain? - 18/10/2011 09:35:47 AM 914 Views
You'd probably be better off asking after tomorrow's debate - 18/10/2011 10:19:50 AM 740 Views
He wasn't Abel ^_^ *NM* - 18/10/2011 01:24:57 PM 223 Views
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *NM* - 18/10/2011 06:44:55 PM 221 Views
I have trouble taking him seriously - 18/10/2011 01:59:23 PM 610 Views
That is the problem with all Romneys opponents. - 18/10/2011 03:32:50 PM 621 Views
what positions of Perry's do you consider radical? - 18/10/2011 03:56:30 PM 513 Views
Well, abolishing Social Security is pretty far out there, and publicly threatening the Fed Chairman. - 18/10/2011 04:50:03 PM 720 Views
yes but I was talkin about his actuall posistions not the made up stuff *NM* - 18/10/2011 05:10:47 PM 301 Views
When the candidate "makes them up" they are positions. - 18/10/2011 05:26:18 PM 531 Views
all you need to do is provide a link supporting your claim that Perry said he wants to abolish SS - 18/10/2011 05:56:23 PM 459 Views
Really? Do you not watch the news? That's common knowledge *NM* - 18/10/2011 06:04:06 PM 214 Views
I believe what RT means ... - 18/10/2011 06:22:42 PM 505 Views
No it isn't a fine point - 18/10/2011 06:48:00 PM 662 Views
He said he wants private retirement accounts instead, which is abolishing Social Security. - 18/10/2011 10:44:33 PM 645 Views
Privatizing isn't the same as abolishing - 18/10/2011 10:53:04 PM 576 Views
It is unless the governments role is more than "you MUST do this; figure out how on your own." - 19/10/2011 12:10:25 AM 640 Views
Are you correcting yourself or qualifying your statement? - 19/10/2011 06:30:34 AM 625 Views
Neither; laws requiring everyone do something do NOTHING themselves. - 20/10/2011 10:10:31 AM 607 Views
Really give me link *NM* - 18/10/2011 06:38:24 PM 217 Views
It is ridiculously simple; here ya go: - 18/10/2011 08:15:24 PM 568 Views
OK he doesn't like it now give me the link where he wants to abolish it - 18/10/2011 09:29:38 PM 507 Views
You see no conflict between this post and your next one? - 18/10/2011 10:16:21 PM 659 Views
no I don't - 18/10/2011 11:36:38 PM 589 Views
By his own statements he either wants to end it or violate the Constitution. - 19/10/2011 12:13:33 AM 557 Views
you really excell at misunderstanding *NM* - 19/10/2011 12:30:32 AM 240 Views
and Perry is right about SS being unconstitutional - 18/10/2011 09:44:14 PM 486 Views
And you criticize MY choice of "unbiased" sources.... - 18/10/2011 10:33:56 PM 657 Views
I'm not a conservative, but - 18/10/2011 04:56:22 PM 553 Views
*hi5* *NM* - 18/10/2011 05:05:19 PM 230 Views
Imagine there is no pizza *NM* - 19/10/2011 12:02:36 AM 236 Views
Cain is the anti-christ? *NM* - 19/10/2011 12:18:21 AM 198 Views
Post-debate, my opinion is fairly unchanged - 19/10/2011 06:35:32 AM 714 Views
Romney slapped Perry down so hard tonight. It was wonderful. - 19/10/2011 06:53:52 AM 611 Views
It was that, I rather enjoyed it - 19/10/2011 07:10:49 AM 556 Views
I promise - 19/10/2011 10:33:49 AM 647 Views
I can see the buttons now: "Vote for... something... maybe...!" - 20/10/2011 10:46:44 AM 986 Views
...the words made sense by themselves, but when I put them together, meaning vanished. - 20/10/2011 11:33:46 AM 529 Views
Try sounding out each word. - 20/10/2011 11:59:25 AM 592 Views
let me ask you this about Cain - 19/10/2011 01:47:36 PM 632 Views
Why is that, would you think? - 19/10/2011 06:29:53 PM 582 Views
There just seems to be strong lack of good choices - 19/10/2011 06:50:25 PM 615 Views
I'm getting the same impression... not necessarily worse candidates, just more criticism. - 19/10/2011 08:37:21 PM 756 Views
I blame the press - 19/10/2011 09:05:36 PM 720 Views
Amen to that. I agree with everything you say. - 19/10/2011 09:49:45 PM 646 Views
I blame the public, and, to a lesser degree, Nielsen and Armitron. - 20/10/2011 11:39:43 AM 634 Views
tl;dr *NM* - 20/10/2011 12:19:03 PM 219 Views
Still prefer "TL;DV." - 20/10/2011 12:33:41 PM 655 Views
Re: There just seems to be strong lack of good choices - 20/10/2011 03:25:20 PM 865 Views
don't get me wrong I am not calling for a moderate - 20/10/2011 04:02:01 PM 779 Views
Re: let me ask you this about Cain - 20/10/2011 07:05:43 AM 567 Views

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