Let's see...you're asking if property theft by the state is compatible with freedom? No.
Tom Send a noteboard - 10/10/2011 04:58:14 AM
I don't pretend to know the deep, internal workings of economics and I have a pretty good grasp on the different characteristics of government styles. A lot of Locke's principles that we base the American republic on are similar to the ideals of communist thought. The principles of equality, liberty, freedom, etc from democracy/ republics when applied to economics results in a lot of the same principles as communism. To the contrary, the king of the mountain mentality in free markets somewhat requires the few taking advantage of the many lower working class to amass wealth and get ahead. When applied to politics, that system doesn't represent equality, liberty, freedom. Its more accurate of an oligarchy or fascist state (think Nazi's taking advantage of a Slav working caste).
This is probably one of the worst applications of logic that I have seen in quite some time. Democracy is about the freedom of people to choose the manner in which they live their lives - it is about the freedom to practice their religion, speak as they please (regardless of whether the ideas are popular or even acceptable in polite society), associate with whom they please and have their rights protected. It is about being able to choose representatives in the government to make their voice heard. Equality in democracy is equality before the law - no one person is supposed to be able to receive special treatment, so that all have an equal opportunity in the pursuit of happiness.
By contrast, communism is not about equality of opportunity, but about equality of condition. Free markets, if operating properly, give everyone the opportunity to do with their lives what they want to. If someone is unambitious, lazy or untalented, they are unlikely to become rich. However, it is largely up to the individual. Communism, to use your poor attempt at analogies, is more like forcing everyone to have the same religion, speak on the same topics and associate with the same people. It's no coincidence that communism goes hand in hand with the most brutal and inhumane dictatorships that the world has ever known, because the only way to truly make everyone equal in condition is to kill them all. The next best thing to that is to put them in prison, and communist nations are just that - giant prisons. There is a reason why people risk death to escape them.
Your terrible analogy makes it sound as though we live in a feudal society, where "working class" is a label you're born with and must die with. In reality, the history of America in particular and Western democracy generally is that people can rise on their merits to transcend any background. Bill Gates wasn't born to wealth, nor was Steve Jobs. Michael Jackson's family wasn't rich, nor was Britney Spears'.
As a disclaimer, I know this is oversimplified and any government/economy today is a pretty complex mixture of a lot of ideas and systems. It seems the tea party and occupy wall street folks want principles from the political ideologies inserted into their economic world. So I have a few questions for you...
Yes, it's grossly oversimplified.
Do you think that the ideals of democracy have a place in a free market economy?
Free market economies are quite simply not possible without democracy. There are nations that attempt free market economies without democracy, but one of two things happens: (1) they become democracies (like Taiwan, South Korea, Thailand, the Philippines) or (2) their "free market" becomes an illusion that masks a patronage system (China, Russia, the Arab World, Africa).
Do the ideals of democracy more accurately represent communism?
No, emphatically. Communism can only be successfully implemented at the barrel of a gun. Explain to me why I get the exact same from society as the lazy good-for-nothing guy who is drunk every day by noon, and see how many people are going to voluntarily participate in that system, and you realize why you have to shoot people to keep them in a system that intrinsically unfair.
Can a true democratic political system and a true free market economy coexist?
Yes, of course. I think you're very confused about just what democracy is about. The concept of democracy is diametrically opposed to the fundamental principles of communism. In democracy, every INDIVIDUAL is given rights and protections against government intrusion and dictates. The notion is that the rights of the many can only be preserved if the rights of each individual are preserved. This is the concept of protection of the rights of the minority in a "majority rule" situation. Only by protecting each individual do we protect everyone.
By contrast, communism rejects the value of the individual in the name of the "rights of the many". In so doing, we see that the value of the individual falls. People are executed, seen as "expendable" for the "greater good" and their individual rights wither. In short, by seeking to protect "the rights of all", the rights of no one are served. It's just like trying to please everyone all of the time - you end up pleasing no one.
Communism and democracy are diametrically opposed in a fundamental way that cannot be reconciled. Social safety nets designed to keep the vulnerable from dying or suffering can, within reasonable limits, be implemented, but full socialism or communism ALWAYS destroy the value of the individual and end in destroying their societies.
Why or why not on all of these questions.
Thanks
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Is communism the true economy of democracies?
10/10/2011 01:35:24 AM
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Sorry, not following this.....
10/10/2011 03:33:11 AM
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Um, a LOT of places have mixed "free" market and state rule.
10/10/2011 05:43:49 AM
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WTF? Canada, Western Europe, and Japan are democracies, not state-rule like China - *NM*
10/10/2011 05:53:17 PM
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They are not similar.
10/10/2011 04:01:59 AM
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That's why Lenin came up with the soviets, though that was pretty naïve, too.
10/10/2011 05:54:37 AM
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Lenin died in 1924. The Civil War was over in 1920. He died after several strokes. *NM*
10/10/2011 05:30:58 PM
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Sorry, did not realize he survived it that long.
11/10/2011 04:21:05 AM
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There is no evidence that Lenin was poisoned.
11/10/2011 04:50:28 AM
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That is hardly the only way to kill; in Lenins condition, neglect would have sufficed.
11/10/2011 06:28:31 AM
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Let's see...you're asking if property theft by the state is compatible with freedom? No.
10/10/2011 04:58:14 AM
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I'm curious how you distinguish "full socialism" from "full communism."
10/10/2011 05:32:53 AM
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You obviously don't understand the definitions of socialism and communism.
10/10/2011 02:41:39 PM
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In theory, but economics is not politics, making social contracts a bit more dubious.
10/10/2011 05:18:39 AM
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No. A thousand times no.
10/10/2011 07:46:22 AM
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Guess I count myself among those fools, though I pretty much agree with Danny.
10/10/2011 10:52:11 AM
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I don't usually answer your scattershot rants, Joel, but you have overextended yourself.
10/10/2011 05:28:07 PM
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That still looks like Stalin and Mao rationalizing away the impossibility of their stated goals.
11/10/2011 05:59:06 AM
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No time to today, but you're very wrong.
11/10/2011 02:32:38 PM
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OK.
11/10/2011 03:08:17 PM
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Nope, because free-market democracy totally permits communism already
12/10/2011 12:50:36 AM
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