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Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel Send a noteboard - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
And nothing has changed. I'm sorry, but I just don't care to get into such a big argument when we both interpret things very differently.

Fair enough, but after all, my primary contention here is that we DO interpret things very differently; that is why we subscribe to different religions.
But as for the Nicene Creed. I don't know very much about Christian history from the time after the New Testament. But I do know that much of the Nicene Creed was not commonly accepted for the ~300 years leading up to it. There were competing views, and some did not believe in the Trinity. Not just the Gnostics and other religions you mentioned, but Christians. So yes, a non-Nicene Christian is possible. My memory is fuzzy, but it seems like it Athanasian Christianity vs Something. IIRC, Athanasians believed the Trinity, the others believed in 3 distinct personages. I'm just trying to get the names across so you know what I mean, I'm sure you've studied it.

Though the comparison is natural; the crux of Arianism is Arius' contention that
If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he had his substance from nothing.

which is much the same logic Joseph Smith used to contend the Father made the Son and was Himself made by a father made in turn by yet ANOTHER father, though the bible never even references those last two beings (despite Joseph Smiths assertion to the contrary.) Athansius was orthodox doctrines chief apologist and thoroughly refuted that concepts place in Christianity a millennium and a half ago; it has only grown less rather than more compatible with Christianity since.

Christians COMMONLY accepted most, if not all, of the Nicene Creed long before the Council of Nicaea. The Council was prompted by that commonly accepted beliefs growing erosion and muddling due to deliberate Gnostic and heretic assaults and a widespread vagueness and ignorance among NEW Christians only beginning to rigorously explore Christology. Thus the Church formally stated its Christology, clarifying what was indisputably Spirit breathed (e.g. the Gospel of John) and what was simply heresy (e.g. Monophysite denial of Christs humanity, Ebionite denial of His divinity, and Gnostic Trojan horses like the "Gospels" of Thomas and Judas.) The Councils of Nicaea and Ephesus brought order out of chaos by the Grace of God, but the idea Christianity had until then been an eclectic equivalent of Gnosticism that simply replaced "gnosis" with "Jesus" in not credible.

Then as now there were certainly plenty of casual "disciples" who neither knew nor cared to know doctrinal details, but anyone familiar with Mormon history from NY to UT knows that a fan is not an adherent. Those who ARE adherents, however, require a clear doctrine to which they can adhere, particularly when besieged by myriad competing incompatible beliefs and new in their own faith. The Church Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, put an end to Christians confused into accepting things like Arianism, Monophysism and Ebionism, or led completely astray by things like Gnosticism. That is not to say another religion cannot now promote Arianism or anything else, only that a doctrine other than Christianitys long ago clearly and definitely established one is ANOTHER religion.
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The Arian Controversy
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Mormons - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2362 Views
Questions. - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1115 Views
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STATION! *NM* - 03/10/2011 11:00:35 PM 553 Views
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....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 573 Views
Nope. - 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM 957 Views
there's no real point to it - 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM 1956 Views
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Oh dont be such a fuddy duddy. - 03/10/2011 10:42:06 PM 584 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 588 Views
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Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM 474 Views
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Goodness.. - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 632 Views
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You know, my mother had a saying. - 04/10/2011 03:39:32 AM 697 Views
I think it's safe to say ... - 04/10/2011 04:09:17 AM 598 Views
I'm not sure which would be sadder... - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 735 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 562 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 583 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 609 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 640 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 638 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 604 Views
Re: Also. - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 649 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 596 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 707 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 605 Views
Those were the good old days. - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 634 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 534 Views
I agree, it's driving me nuts *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:36:45 PM 524 Views
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Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 599 Views
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*sigh* to all of you above.... - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 634 Views
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i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 577 Views
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"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 941 Views
I conceded your last point. - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 858 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 880 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 962 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 915 Views
Oh, that's very simple - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 924 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 941 Views
thank you, both of you - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 927 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 1002 Views
Agreed. - 04/10/2011 04:44:49 PM 887 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 937 Views
Glad you enjoyed it - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 1046 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 947 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1029 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1187 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1062 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 964 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1169 Views
Woah nelly. - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 982 Views
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Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 991 Views
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Exactly - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 897 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 979 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 879 Views
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It is not NECESSARILY racist. - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 939 Views
Sure, except ... - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 965 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 898 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 972 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 958 Views
That sounds really nice. - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 916 Views
Why wait though? - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1100 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 510 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 929 Views
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I'm satisfied by that explanation. - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1092 Views
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Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1096 Views
Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 893 Views
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True - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 852 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 955 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1082 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 548 Views
Re: Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1080 Views
Uhh... - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 897 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1007 Views
And you know that because... why, again? - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 926 Views
Tough Crowd. - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 1044 Views
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Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 635 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1004 Views

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