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I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien Send a noteboard - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM


If we are baptized in this life, the ordinance is done. If we are not, it can be done for us by proxy.

This is one doctrine that has always seemed so logical to me, I never have quite understood the attention and debate it stirs. Christ came to save all men. What about all the people who have never even heard his name? There are still people today who do not know anything about Christ. They have not been baptized, but it's not because they rejected Christ. Are they just out of luck?

Instead, we believe that they can learn the gospel in the afterlife, and can accept it. We perform their baptism for them, and they can choose to accept it or not. But it means it is their choice, not something beyond their control because of circumstances.



I really like this part of your religion. Not that it would help me, but still. This is good.

But then- shouldn't this be an argument *against* missionaries? What if you fail to convince someone and that person rejects Christ in this life. It seems like you'd be able to be more convincing in the afterlife.


But a person must have a clear chance to accept it. There isn't any clear definition what that means, because it's different for every person. If the missionaries knock, and get a door slammed in their face, it likely doesn't mean the person's chance is up. They didn't know enough to reject it. So if the missionaries "fail to convince someone" like you said, it doesn't necessarily mean they're out of luck.

And though it does seem like it'd be impossible to not believe the gospel if you are actually in the afterlife, it will happen. Doesn't make much sense, but I don't think our mortal minds are that good at comprehending non-mortal existence.

And then, beside all that, living the gospel is the key to true joy. It's the difference of helping people find happiness now, as opposed to up to 100 years later on..



Those are really good answers. Both that telling someone now doesn't necessarily use up their chance, and that you want to tell them now because you want to and because you believe they will be happier and more fulfilled in this life as a result, regardless of the afterlife.



It might be a personal question, but why do you think this? I don't care what you've done. You're never too unworthy to pray to God. You can always be forgiven if you are sincere in asking. Please don't think you are beyond help.



Oh Gosh it's not about what I've done and my worth. It's almost funny, that's almost exactly backwards. I was christian for a fairly decent period of time and I made a choice to turn away from Christ, as you'd say it. Not a decision made lightly or suddenly.

My behavior didn't change, it's not like a story from a teen bible study group where the lapsed christian uses drugs and risky behavior to fill the void in his/her soul. Couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, I've never ever tried any recreational drugs. I have drank alcohol but not much and not very often. I almost never drank in high school and rarely in college and now I'm probably in the heyday of my drinking days but realistically I have alcohol an average of once a month.

Hahaha, I just googled what else mormons don't allow and guess what- I would have no problem with a coffee ban because I don't drink it anyway. I'm also not gay so I'd have no problem with not being gay. I have had premarital sex but I mean, I'm 25- if I hadn't at this point it would certainly be my new year's resolution to fix that. Oh! Also- I almost never curse and I don't like it when I'm around people that do. If I feel comfortable and I want to spend more time with someone who curses a lot I'll ask him or her to try to curse less. [And I dislike it for many reasons- for one thing people don't realize you're angry or upset unless you curse but that's a whole other topic]

Not that I think any of the above define a person's "worth"! I've only addressed those points because that's what came up with google. The point is, it's not about anything I've done that makes me unworthy or scared. The point is I simply don't believe. I just cannot be sincere in praying to God or asking for forgiveness/help. If it's real- if there is an all powerful God out there- I don't love him with any part of my heart.

Numerous edits because I tried to fix the quote thing and then I thought of the cursing thing.
This message last edited by Vivien on 06/10/2011 at 09:12:07 PM
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OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly beetnemesis - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 648 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". Legolas - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 676 Views
Re: Re: Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 679 Views
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The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) Jeordam - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 1046 Views
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Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 1063 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1116 Views
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I never said well-written, I said complex. Gher - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1165 Views
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Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1262 Views
Woah nelly. Ghavrel - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 1063 Views
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Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 1100 Views
oh well that makes it all better... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 1105 Views
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A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine. Joel - 04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM 1033 Views
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Whoops! You meant in LDS specifically. My mistake. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:14:05 AM 577 Views
Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM 833 Views
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it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 1013 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 1026 Views
Sure, except ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 1061 Views
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It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." Joel - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 1069 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 1060 Views
Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM 943 Views
Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism. Legolas - 07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM 1301 Views
I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies. Joel - 07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM 1398 Views
Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ Larry - 07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM 991 Views
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Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Joel - 08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM 1061 Views
I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM 961 Views
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I was just saying there were competing views. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM 1429 Views
Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM 942 Views
That sounds really nice. Vivien - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 1021 Views
Why wait though? Joel - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1191 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 543 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 Joel - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 1011 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM 1041 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one Joel - 06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM 950 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 942 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1187 Views
Re: I'm satisfied by that explanation. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:45:29 PM 1027 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 854 Views
....i don't know what you look like LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM 982 Views
Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM* everynametaken - 05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM 678 Views
Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. Joel - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1185 Views
Off-Topic Larry - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 953 Views
Hmm Tom - 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM 1146 Views
True Larry - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 935 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. Tom - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 1051 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology Larry - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1164 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* Tom - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 587 Views
Re: Off-Topic CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1180 Views
Uhh... Larry - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 980 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1095 Views
And you know that because... why, again? Joel - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 1021 Views
Tough Crowd. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 1137 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. TaskmasterJack - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 982 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* Dan - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 668 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1096 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed. everynametaken - 04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM 1015 Views
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