Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors...
Joel Send a noteboard - 04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM
is guilty of SOMETHING. Makes it hard for anyone to claim the moral high ground. Let he who is without sin, and all that.
An attempt to explain or not, the thought that some people have dark skin because their ancestors were evil and I have white skin because my ancestors were pure is clearly verging sharply into racist territory, even if you don't feel that current dark-skinned people are evil and current white-skinned people are pure. It's a semantic step away from white-purity racism, but it's still on the same stage and the implications are similar.
Ultimately, I am inclined to agree, simply because of the principle of inherited guilt (which has a shaky theological foundation, to say the least.) Another funny thing: In the case of Ham (and I would be STUNNED if this is not a variation on that old hoary old verse, popularly used in Joseph Smiths day to rationalize for slavery,) Noah, not God, utters the malediction, without reference to skin color, only condemning one of his sons descendants to be "a servant of servants" to his other sons descendants. I say that because this could be a case of slapping a "Kick Me" sign on someones back: When they inevitably get kicked, does the fault lie with the people kicking them or the guy who made the sign? I would say both, but in any case, an innocent bystander observing that they are being kicked because they did something that made someone else mad enough to put a sign on their back is in no way an indictment of said bystander. THAT said, casting the action that prompted the sign as a "sin" does tend to imply at least some degree of judgment on the past, but is neither here nor there to present behavior or attitudes.
The point is that is more a case of "sucks to be them" than "they deserve it." Particularly in provincial settings where thunder and lightning come from "the Leader," people are eager of explanations for why some groups get shafted harder, deeper and more often than others. Ideally, an explanation that does not make "the Leader" into a total ass (clashes with the whole "righteous perfection" theme.) The easiest solution is to make peoples suffering into "the judgment of Heaven on their sins," and, if no such sins are readily evident, dead ancestors can conveniently be blamed since they are no longer around to defend their good name. Now, I would not be a bit surprised (the opposite, really) to learn there was no element of "the Indians ancestors were bad people so we deserve their land" in 1840s MO (let alone UT, particularly given the Mormons were as quick to declare it their New Canaan as the Puritans were New England) but it is not a given.
we're just surprised that anyone still clings to idiotic, racist bullshit like that, or would admit to it....
I mean, what, does he think that Jesus was a blond Aryan man, too?
Just like people who think Jews have been punished for disobeying Mosaic law, rejecting Christ or [your unforgivable sin here] are not necessarily Anti-Semitic or approving of the Jews undeniable hardship over the past 2500 years or so. Again, it can simply be an attempted explanation rather than attempted justification.
An attempt to explain or not, the thought that some people have dark skin because their ancestors were evil and I have white skin because my ancestors were pure is clearly verging sharply into racist territory, even if you don't feel that current dark-skinned people are evil and current white-skinned people are pure. It's a semantic step away from white-purity racism, but it's still on the same stage and the implications are similar.
Ultimately, I am inclined to agree, simply because of the principle of inherited guilt (which has a shaky theological foundation, to say the least.) Another funny thing: In the case of Ham (and I would be STUNNED if this is not a variation on that old hoary old verse, popularly used in Joseph Smiths day to rationalize for slavery,) Noah, not God, utters the malediction, without reference to skin color, only condemning one of his sons descendants to be "a servant of servants" to his other sons descendants. I say that because this could be a case of slapping a "Kick Me" sign on someones back: When they inevitably get kicked, does the fault lie with the people kicking them or the guy who made the sign? I would say both, but in any case, an innocent bystander observing that they are being kicked because they did something that made someone else mad enough to put a sign on their back is in no way an indictment of said bystander. THAT said, casting the action that prompted the sign as a "sin" does tend to imply at least some degree of judgment on the past, but is neither here nor there to present behavior or attitudes.
The point is that is more a case of "sucks to be them" than "they deserve it." Particularly in provincial settings where thunder and lightning come from "the Leader," people are eager of explanations for why some groups get shafted harder, deeper and more often than others. Ideally, an explanation that does not make "the Leader" into a total ass (clashes with the whole "righteous perfection" theme.) The easiest solution is to make peoples suffering into "the judgment of Heaven on their sins," and, if no such sins are readily evident, dead ancestors can conveniently be blamed since they are no longer around to defend their good name. Now, I would not be a bit surprised (the opposite, really) to learn there was no element of "the Indians ancestors were bad people so we deserve their land" in 1840s MO (let alone UT, particularly given the Mormons were as quick to declare it their New Canaan as the Puritans were New England) but it is not a given.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Mormons
03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM
- 2362 Views
Questions.
03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM
- 1115 Views
Re: Questions.
03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM
- 1078 Views
I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk.
03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM
- 1014 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM*
03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM
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....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM*
03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM
- 573 Views
Nope.
04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM
- 957 Views
there's no real point to it
04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM
- 1957 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones
04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM
- 924 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?"
03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM
- 1023 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM*
03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM
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In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM*
03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM
- 575 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities...
03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM
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Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible?
04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM
- 966 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name.
04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM
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I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there
03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM
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Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM*
03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM
- 467 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him.
03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM
- 694 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM*
04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM
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Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM*
04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM
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I'll tell you whats embarresing...
04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM
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That is hilarious.
04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM
- 689 Views
Goodness..
04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM
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Re:
04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM
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OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly
04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM
- 609 Views
Re: Also.
04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM
- 649 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM*
04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM
- 596 Views
He's doing it on purpose though.
04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM
- 707 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM
- 599 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM
- 621 Views
*sigh* to all of you above....
04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM
- 634 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians.
03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
- 1105 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though
03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM
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We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed.
03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM
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That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however.
03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM
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I understand what both you and Danny are saying
04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM
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The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's)
03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM
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We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God.
04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM
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If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM
- 1188 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM
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Woah nelly.
04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM
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I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM
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Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM
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oh well that makes it all better...
04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM
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Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy.
04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM
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I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions.
04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM
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A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine.
04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM
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Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM
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Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one.
05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM
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Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan.
05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM
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I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked
04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM
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it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel"
04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM
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It is not NECESSARILY racist.
04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM
- 941 Views
Sure, except ...
04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM
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Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors...
04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM
- 831 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian."
04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM
- 972 Views
I think we've had this discussion before.
06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM
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Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian.
06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
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Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism.
07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM
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I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies.
07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM
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Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ
07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM
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Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons.
07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM
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Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM
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I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites.
07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM
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Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this.
07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM
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I was just saying there were competing views.
07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM
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Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views.
07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM
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That sounds really nice.
04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM
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Why wait though?
05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM
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So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM
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I really want an answer from a mormon.
05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM
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Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one
06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM
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Yeah, that's what I thought.
06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM
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Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head*
04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM
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....i don't know what you look like
04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM
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Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM*
05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM
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Off-Topic
05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM
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Hmm
05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM
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True
05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM
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I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy.
05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM
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Re: Off-Topic
05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM
- 1080 Views
Uhh...
05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM
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The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets.
05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM
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Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed.
04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM
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