I cannot speak for them, but imagine there are three overarching complaints.
Joel Send a noteboard - 28/09/2011 10:24:21 PM
I'd like the protesters to have an idea of what they are protesting, what they want to accomplish, and how that might be done.
Everyone mentions unemployment. Guess what? No industry hates the high rate of unemployment more than Wall Street.
The vast bulk of problems are legislatively-driven, and a direct result of government policies. Real estate bubble? Mortgage interest deduction. Stock bubble? Favorable rates on cap gains and dividends. Threat of a double-dip? Not extending unemployment benefits (the best way to stimulate the economy), misguided initiatives like cash-for-clunkers. Commodities bubble and increasing inflation in spite of slowing economy - commodities speculation. Ok I realize this is EXTREMELY simplistic and biased at that, but seriously - pretend I'm a Wall Street banker. What exactly do you want me to do?
Not to mention, the protesters will only be harrassing local residents, as there are NO bankers there on the weekend! And very few left on the Wall St area altogether, they are all midtown now. Or Connecticut.
If people are going to protest and want news attention, then have some clear ideas of what your goals are. Here are some: aid to states, reverse austerity policies, vote out Republicans, extend unemployment benefits, support the law Obama proposed to bad discrimination for unemployed job-seekers, more stringent regulation for the commodities market, reduce defense spending...
Everyone mentions unemployment. Guess what? No industry hates the high rate of unemployment more than Wall Street.
The vast bulk of problems are legislatively-driven, and a direct result of government policies. Real estate bubble? Mortgage interest deduction. Stock bubble? Favorable rates on cap gains and dividends. Threat of a double-dip? Not extending unemployment benefits (the best way to stimulate the economy), misguided initiatives like cash-for-clunkers. Commodities bubble and increasing inflation in spite of slowing economy - commodities speculation. Ok I realize this is EXTREMELY simplistic and biased at that, but seriously - pretend I'm a Wall Street banker. What exactly do you want me to do?
Not to mention, the protesters will only be harrassing local residents, as there are NO bankers there on the weekend! And very few left on the Wall St area altogether, they are all midtown now. Or Connecticut.
If people are going to protest and want news attention, then have some clear ideas of what your goals are. Here are some: aid to states, reverse austerity policies, vote out Republicans, extend unemployment benefits, support the law Obama proposed to bad discrimination for unemployed job-seekers, more stringent regulation for the commodities market, reduce defense spending...
You're saying "deluded fools," he says "quixotically condemning the system," implying he thinks it's pointless to protest, or at least useless to.
Is it that you don't think there is anything to protest (that is, that the various banks/firms/anything else that falls under "Wall Street" have done nothing worth protesting), or that you don't think the protest will accomplish anything?
If it's the first, well, I won't get into that. If it's the second, I feel like you don't quite understand the purpose of a protest. It's not a legislative body- one protest is not going to get a law passed.
What a protest is supposed to accomplish is to register your discontent, in a way that is hard to ignore. Not that most news outlets haven't been trying- I've seen very little coverage- but it's supposed to make people go, "Hm, if this horde of people is so angry about something that they're willing to scream about it in the streets, maybe there's something there."
Tom, you saying they should come up with "constructive and realistic proposals for change" instead of protesting is a bit...well, silly isn't the right word, but it's close. I thought you said they should be spending their time getting jobs? Plus, for the most part, these people are not legislators, television personalities, or the like. Even if they did have some proposals (and I'm sure some do, though I'm sure plenty just wanted to broadcast their general outrage), there's little chance of them running for office and implementing them. I suppose they could write letters to representatives and newspapers... and some of them do. None of that precludes protesting.
Oh, and Tom and random? you both look like idiots when you make comments about bums, hippies, and "macing them all." Makes you sound like Eric Cartman.
Is it that you don't think there is anything to protest (that is, that the various banks/firms/anything else that falls under "Wall Street" have done nothing worth protesting), or that you don't think the protest will accomplish anything?
If it's the first, well, I won't get into that. If it's the second, I feel like you don't quite understand the purpose of a protest. It's not a legislative body- one protest is not going to get a law passed.
What a protest is supposed to accomplish is to register your discontent, in a way that is hard to ignore. Not that most news outlets haven't been trying- I've seen very little coverage- but it's supposed to make people go, "Hm, if this horde of people is so angry about something that they're willing to scream about it in the streets, maybe there's something there."
Tom, you saying they should come up with "constructive and realistic proposals for change" instead of protesting is a bit...well, silly isn't the right word, but it's close. I thought you said they should be spending their time getting jobs? Plus, for the most part, these people are not legislators, television personalities, or the like. Even if they did have some proposals (and I'm sure some do, though I'm sure plenty just wanted to broadcast their general outrage), there's little chance of them running for office and implementing them. I suppose they could write letters to representatives and newspapers... and some of them do. None of that precludes protesting.
Oh, and Tom and random? you both look like idiots when you make comments about bums, hippies, and "macing them all." Makes you sound like Eric Cartman.
1) Lack of regulation and enforcement for industry in general and Wall Street in particular,
2) Vast disparities in the tax code and
3) Fair trade.
It can fairly be said that Wall Street has little direct control over much of that, but just as fairly that they greatly influence all of it indirectly. Much of it can be covered under anger and resentment directed at corporate donors and lobbyists controlling government policy. You referenced "Real estate bubble? Mortgage interest deduction. Stock bubble? Favorable rates on cap gains and dividends" as "legislatively-driven, and a direct result of government policies." That is true so far as it goes--but conveniently ignores the fact the policies in question were Wall Street driven relaxation of government regulation and oversight that had prevented those disasters. Wall Street insisted on those "un-policies" because it accurately perceived a personal advantage in them and either did not see or did not care about the cost to American workers, consumers and taxpayers, not to mention the effect on the global economy. That is a failing in Wall Street, not just the politicians who acceded to lobbyists demands and donors money.
(Other) issues with the taxes and fair trade are similar: Wall Street does not DIRECTLY write the tax code so favorable to them or the "free" trade agreements that allow all benefits of US based production with none of the responsibility, but Wall Street actively instructs those who write our laws HOW to do so. Shareholders get a greater return on their investment if a company can maintain its revenue while outsourcing production to countries where they can pay 12 year olds $0.20/hr to process poisoned food and drugs for Western markets then dump the toxic byproducts in the local water supply. Thus we have have "free" trade, even if it is no more free than a Burmese soldier with a gun pointed at a factory full of workers/slaves. "Free" trade is not the democratic internationalism in which it is cloaked, only laissez-faire globalism, and those who demand laissez-faire policies are every bit as culpable as the politicians and lobbyists they pay to implement them. Rather than improving Third World living standards, all it does is encourage more erosion of Western consumer, labor and environmental protection regulations for the sake of preserving competitiveness. The most disgusting aspect of that is that those making that argument are the same ones who fought for "free" trade so they could evade regulations at home after failing to repeal them; they are simply taking a different return route to their Dickensian paradise at the cost of 10% US unemployment, lead toys, anti-freeze filled tooth paste and poisoned grain.
If you have not yet noticed the trend, the most obvious example is our tax code. The US government claims authority to tax all its citizens income, wherever earned--but corporate income earned overseas is sacrosanct, even as those corporations executives and apologists staunchly defend their entitlement to the same rights (but not the same responsibilities) of real people. Yet again, that is a matter of legislative policy, but that policy did not happen in a vacuum; it happened because Wall Street insists on it and ensures politicians comply with that insistence.
You ask what I would want you to do if you were a Wall Street banker, but the pre-existing question remains "Why isn't Wall Street in jail? I have yet to hear a compelling answer to that question, only dismissals of anyone daring to pose it, on the flimsy grounds that the question itself qualifies one as a partisan hack. Yes, repealing the Glass-Steagall Act was a (disastrous) federal policy decision, but it is a bit disingenuous to imply Wall Street simply reacted to rather than motivated it. Wall Street knew better than anyone that its absence would revive the incestuous relationship between lending and investment firms that helped cause the Depression, but fought hard and successfully to repeal Glass-Steagall despite (because of...?) that. Obviously a paid assassin should be prosecuted for his crimes, but that does not mean his clients should be ignored.
If you simply mean the protesters would be better served to protest politicians making themselves, and the US public by extension, helpless hostages to Wall Street greed, I can see that argument. However, a DC protest would be quickly lost amid the myriad other routine protests directed at US politicians; by taking this one to Wall Street the protesters spotlight their primary objections as well as the source of the problem hiding behind paid lobbyists and political stooges. I certainly agree that these protesters can only be effective by clearly and concisely articulating their greivances, but their choice of venues is, IMHO, not only valid but appropriate.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
/Survey: The "occupy Wall Street" protest.
28/09/2011 04:31:46 AM
- 756 Views
yeah with some popcorn to watch the wannabe hippies get pepper sprayed *NM*
28/09/2011 01:28:36 PM
- 232 Views
Sure. I don't quite understand the hostility you and Tom have
28/09/2011 02:05:06 PM
- 414 Views
Eric Cartman was right about the hippies
28/09/2011 03:34:26 PM
- 529 Views
This is 2011. Calling all protesters "hippies" is like saying everyone in Starbucks is a beatnik
28/09/2011 04:03:44 PM
- 487 Views
Uh, "back in the day" there were a lot of hippies in the civil disobedience camp. *NM*
28/09/2011 05:48:36 PM
- 190 Views
and all why have now is wannabes who cry when the police are mean to them *NM*
28/09/2011 05:50:24 PM
- 214 Views
What exactly do they want, and how might it be accomplished?
28/09/2011 03:55:32 PM
- 475 Views
I generally agree with this, though my financial knowledge is lacking.
28/09/2011 05:51:33 PM
- 458 Views
I cannot speak for them, but imagine there are three overarching complaints.
28/09/2011 10:24:21 PM
- 578 Views
A relevant article to this thread, I think
28/09/2011 07:08:20 PM
- 708 Views
It's not being marginalized. It's not worthy of discussion in the first place to need marginalizing
28/09/2011 09:25:56 PM
- 507 Views
No, I have a life. *NM*
29/09/2011 04:01:50 AM
- 198 Views
After seeing the cops being ridiculous these lugs are starting to grow on me... *NM*
04/10/2011 01:15:34 AM
- 200 Views