The real test will be when a country with a non-discriminatory military fights a major war.
Joel Send a noteboard - 22/09/2011 04:00:12 PM
I just tell you of things as they already are. Y'know, here in the communist, godless country I live in, where women have been allowed in combat positions for more than 20 years. I had no openly homosexual people in my squadron (as far as I know), but I have a friend who had several homosexuals in his unit, and that worked just fine. There's no point worrying about increased drama when you let in gay guys and women, since the gays are already there (only not openly, even though from what I've heard from former US soldiers, you often knew who was gay and you didn't give a shit) and the women have been in non-combat roles for many years, and thus already live on the same bases as the rest of them, so there's plenty of opportunity for sex for everyone already. But people don't follow some old medieval code of knightly conduct just because of the inclusion of possible romantic liaisons. Why? Because it's really, really stupid and contra-productive, and when the shit hits the fan for your latest homo-marine fling while you're having guard duty, you know that there's no damn thing you can do about it from where you are, so you put your hope in their professionalism to save them.
Of course, there will always be idiots being exceptions, but they're there already today, gays or women present or not.
Of course, there will always be idiots being exceptions, but they're there already today, gays or women present or not.
Which is (part of) why the US military has long accepted women in non-combat positions but still drags its feet on putting them in ALL positions. Israel may be the best test case at the moment (particularly if they end up in another war with Syria or, if things go badly there, Egypt) and quickly digging around online I found this NYT op ed by a female former Army Reservist comparing the differences between womens roles in the US and Israeli military. It's a good piece, IMHO, since it covers and offers evidence against all my biggest concerns, while noting and condemning disparities in standards for male and female American military personnel.
If I'm worried about what really are just episodic but inevitable aberrations just as common between "straight" soldiers of the same sex now, then sections of the UCMJ already cover that adequately and are sufficient. A single sex military can largely prevent appalling incidents like astronauts trying to kidnap their fellow astronauts/lovers girlfriends. On the other hand, people inclined to do something like that are just as inclined toward other, far worse behavior, and we should try to screen them out of the military as much as possible for reasons that have nothing to do with their sexual orientation, as well as prosecute anyone who commits heinous acts if they make it in anyway. Again, call me cautiously optimistic.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
USMC first to fight
21/09/2011 03:36:17 PM
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In my imagination it went down something like this:
21/09/2011 04:22:08 PM
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There could be some truth to that
21/09/2011 04:34:36 PM
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They need military chaplains, right? *NM*
21/09/2011 04:36:06 PM
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not in the marines
21/09/2011 04:45:48 PM
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I had a friend who was a Navy chaplain attached to the Marine Corps.
21/09/2011 07:23:10 PM
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I thought nothing could make the Swedish "dress blues" look worse than it already does.
21/09/2011 04:40:08 PM
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Very interesting, but encouraging.
21/09/2011 08:28:38 PM
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The answer on women in combat:
21/09/2011 10:07:04 PM
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I still worry about how the men will react.
22/09/2011 02:33:15 AM
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Well, you can worry about what might happen.
22/09/2011 09:17:02 AM
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and how much actual combat have these units seen?
22/09/2011 02:40:50 PM
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Sweden has not been involved in many hot conflicts during those years, no
22/09/2011 05:04:26 PM
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The real test will be when a country with a non-discriminatory military fights a major war.
22/09/2011 04:00:12 PM
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The other branches could benefit in a lot of ways by trying to emulate the Marines
22/09/2011 03:25:16 PM
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Probably.
22/09/2011 04:33:49 PM
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The Lynndie England case makes my point
22/09/2011 06:16:32 PM
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The Lynndie England case is debatable.
22/09/2011 07:28:53 PM
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sorry not interested in arguing rhetoric *NM*
22/09/2011 09:01:04 PM
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The US Army Field Manual is policy, not rhetoric.
22/09/2011 09:44:58 PM
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no Joel the rheotoric is all you
22/09/2011 10:45:29 PM
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Quoting someone is not rhetoric; I am honestly flabbergasted that we are still debating that fact.
22/09/2011 11:12:29 PM
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This kind of reminds me of Full Metal Jacket...
21/09/2011 10:49:57 PM
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Re: This kind of reminds me of Full Metal Jacket...
21/09/2011 11:14:38 PM
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"I bet you could suck a golfball through a garden hose" was NOT a compliment?
22/09/2011 11:25:43 PM
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The only really great thing about that movies is he sounded so much like a drill instructor
22/09/2011 03:01:13 PM
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I doubt the sort of person who is interested in the Marines will particularly care about being PC *NM*
22/09/2011 10:34:11 PM
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no but they care a lot about having PC forced on the them which happens all the time
22/09/2011 10:41:13 PM
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