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Admitting error is a sign of weakness; Don Draper said so. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/09/2011 05:37:31 PM
That he jumped all over me for things I didn't say, and then stopped responding when I pointed out that I didn't say any of those things and asked him to admit such. Especially since elsewhere in the post he was accusing most people of ignoring evidence that doesn't fit their ideas.

And from what you posted, it seems that even the things I didn't say that he was accusing me of saying might have some basis in truth (even though to me it all comes back to his administration and the advisers around him; but it must be said, a President usually doesn't surround himself with advisers he has a fundamental disagreement with, so the fact that he chose so many former PNAC members and neo-conservatives suggests at least a general agreement with their ideas).

Even--ESPECIALLY--when ones recognizes error, it must not be admitted, because then "the turrists" win (or worse, Democrats, but six of one.... :P) Of course, trying to change the facts because changing the narrative is out of the question naturally annoys everyone citing the facts. I think it's safe to say I've been down this road with this poster more than any other member and, if it help any, my impression is that it's not malice or dishonesty, just plain old stubbornness. Once he's convinced himself of something, he'll hear or not hear what's necessary to support that.

Meanwhile, the facts speak for themselves, regardless of how anyone feels about them; Bush and his boys were typically careful to leave themselves with technical deniability, but it's hard to say they preserved plausible deniability.
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We really need to have Logic as a course in high schools. Tom - 20/09/2011 06:50:36 AM 1215 Views
Logic classes would be good in schools. Timthetrolloc - 20/09/2011 10:23:56 AM 764 Views
Ugh. Ghavrel - 20/09/2011 11:30:59 AM 750 Views
Re: Ugh. Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 12:03:31 AM 710 Views
Something tells me that no matter who answered your questions you wouldn't believe anyway. everynametaken - 21/09/2011 02:16:52 AM 727 Views
this is a controlled demolition Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 12:20:09 AM 831 Views
That is an incredibly stupid argument. Tom - 21/09/2011 01:12:38 AM 738 Views
I've seen controlled demolitions in person. They happen in the opposite order of the WTC collapses. Ghavrel - 21/09/2011 03:54:35 AM 759 Views
Asking questions is never wrong. ironclad - 20/09/2011 12:22:22 PM 677 Views
Re: Asking questions is never wrong. Timthetrolloc - 20/09/2011 11:57:04 PM 826 Views
Agreed Camilla - 20/09/2011 01:09:40 PM 707 Views
I've long advocated this for the reasons Tom states as well as others. Joel - 21/09/2011 06:49:28 AM 663 Views
I don't know if the Internet is degrading skills, or just giving stupid people a voice beetnemesis - 20/09/2011 02:33:24 PM 775 Views
There is compelling evidence that 9/11 was not what it seemed Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 03:06:58 PM 794 Views
No, there is not. Tom - 20/09/2011 03:19:43 PM 870 Views
Well, the circumstances were odd at least Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 03:26:40 PM 751 Views
As far as conspiracies go ... Nate - 20/09/2011 03:36:35 PM 813 Views
what would be the motive for the US doing something that stupid? random thoughts - 20/09/2011 04:40:31 PM 672 Views
I'm not sure you got my gist. Nate - 20/09/2011 04:46:28 PM 674 Views
I don't think there is any evidience that Bush wanted to attack Iraq before 9-11 random thoughts - 20/09/2011 05:21:09 PM 729 Views
Um. Well, sure, that would be true. If you ignored all the evidence. Nate - 20/09/2011 05:45:23 PM 783 Views
Well if you had argued that some Bush advisers wanted to attack Iraq I would have agreed random thoughts - 20/09/2011 06:35:07 PM 765 Views
But that's what I DID argue. Nate - 20/09/2011 06:47:17 PM 753 Views
sorry but you need to be more precise in your terms random thoughts - 21/09/2011 02:37:36 PM 750 Views
I've always seen them as separate. Nate - 21/09/2011 03:33:14 PM 600 Views
and that is why I decided to drop it random thoughts - 21/09/2011 04:07:02 PM 757 Views
Heh. Nate - 21/09/2011 04:15:34 PM 711 Views
And the explicit statement of a Bush Cabinet member. Joel - 21/09/2011 06:59:47 AM 844 Views
I'm still annoyed. Nate - 21/09/2011 01:58:38 PM 658 Views
I stopped responfding when suddenly realized I didn't want to be in a Bush Iraq war debate random thoughts - 21/09/2011 02:53:29 PM 652 Views
Admitting error is a sign of weakness; Don Draper said so. Joel - 21/09/2011 05:37:31 PM 687 Views
and I pointed that it was was just continuin gthe Clinton policy random thoughts - 21/09/2011 02:30:13 PM 728 Views
Even if that were true, it would still be flip flopping on a central Bush platform plank. Joel - 21/09/2011 05:45:10 PM 762 Views
In addition: Nate - 20/09/2011 05:57:33 PM 765 Views
sorry but that is nothing more than a simple statement of fact random thoughts - 20/09/2011 06:40:51 PM 801 Views
This is very frustrating. Nate - 20/09/2011 07:05:48 PM 751 Views
For the war on terror? Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 04:49:12 PM 775 Views
And what was the war on terror supposed to accomplish? random thoughts - 20/09/2011 05:12:11 PM 726 Views
That contradicts the evidence. Tom - 20/09/2011 06:15:48 PM 747 Views
Excuse me? Macharius - 20/09/2011 08:22:21 PM 779 Views
Huh? Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 08:57:14 PM 768 Views
the problem with any other theory is the make no sense random thoughts - 20/09/2011 04:36:02 PM 722 Views
Contemplate this.... Jeordam - 20/09/2011 04:27:52 PM 741 Views
You just did not go Star Trek on me Dark Knight - 20/09/2011 04:44:28 PM 735 Views
And how did you know... Jeordam - 20/09/2011 05:17:10 PM 835 Views
Re: And how did you know... Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 12:16:26 AM 828 Views
You should watch the pilot episode of the X-Files spin-off series The Lone Gunmen. TaskmasterJack - 20/09/2011 08:19:15 PM 792 Views
humans tend to be very bad at critical thinking random thoughts - 20/09/2011 04:58:43 PM 680 Views
Won't help Praziquantel - 20/09/2011 08:15:36 PM 751 Views
Make 'em all take debate. nossy - 20/09/2011 08:23:37 PM 731 Views
Would madam like a cane? Elaine - 20/09/2011 09:19:53 PM 828 Views
Maybe a walker with tennis balls on the bottom. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/09/2011 10:33:39 PM 353 Views
Do you think it would help? aerocontrols - 21/09/2011 12:09:42 AM 694 Views
Re: We really need to have Logic as a course in high schools. Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 12:10:08 AM 720 Views
Yeah, and the 100,000 pounds of sudden extra weight slammed into the towers at 400 mph...? Tom - 21/09/2011 01:05:18 AM 711 Views
Not actually the best example Isaac - 21/09/2011 01:56:03 AM 697 Views
what about the hole it cut into the frame of the building? random thoughts - 21/09/2011 03:23:07 AM 736 Views
Wouldn't make much difference Isaac - 21/09/2011 04:08:27 AM 715 Views
OK thanks *NM* random thoughts - 21/09/2011 02:55:52 PM 386 Views
The fireproofing was scraped off the steel by the crash, so the beams melted. Aeryn - 21/09/2011 07:35:08 PM 920 Views
Re: Yeah, and the 100,000 pounds of sudden extra weight slammed into the towers at 400 mph...? Timthetrolloc - 21/09/2011 03:02:19 AM 764 Views
But how else would they fall down? Aeryn - 21/09/2011 07:42:27 PM 621 Views
You would force Euler on to the masses? Two Wongs - 21/09/2011 03:21:40 PM 788 Views
You could still argue. Vivien - 21/09/2011 04:06:51 PM 647 Views
I didn't mean to imply that it is no fun to argue with a like-minded person Two Wongs - 21/09/2011 04:15:47 PM 679 Views
Eh, nobody uses pure logic all of the time anyway. Vivien - 21/09/2011 10:43:51 PM 720 Views
Or they could just do more math. Cold, hard, beautiful math. Vivien - 21/09/2011 04:01:05 PM 670 Views
I love geometry proofs. Nate - 21/09/2011 04:10:57 PM 783 Views
Me too <3 proofs! *NM* LaSombra - 21/09/2011 07:55:38 PM 384 Views
For pure enjoyment, here's a non math version. Vivien - 21/09/2011 10:10:40 PM 680 Views
+1 *NM* Isaac - 21/09/2011 07:59:57 PM 300 Views
Now we are talking... Everyone can benefit from some basic Euclid. jh - 21/09/2011 08:32:17 PM 927 Views
Ha. Ha. Vivien - 21/09/2011 09:56:38 PM 727 Views
As a follower of Cthulhu, I strongly disagree. Tom - 21/09/2011 11:13:55 PM 882 Views
I really and truly appreciate your love of pure math for math's sake, but... Tom - 21/09/2011 11:10:03 PM 699 Views
Well, it requires a lot more science to really dispute things than HS can give someone Isaac - 21/09/2011 11:28:29 PM 725 Views
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