Sounds like our only disagreement is over where to strike the balance.
Joel Send a noteboard - 15/09/2011 12:36:50 PM
Yet I believe most of the cases people have highlighted of late don't pass the test. Now I've got no problem on calling people out for poor phrasing and reminding them to pick their words with care, but as I've said, I feel there must be a fairly tangible case that the person meant to incite it, mens rea and all. Your example, where the person whispers afterward 'metaphorically' would indeed be sufficient for me, at least for conviction in the court of public opinion, because it can be demonstrated pretty clearly that they did have an intent for the words to have that effect. "DRINK DUFF... responsibly" if you remember the reference, is a different story from someone getting a bit overenthusiastic and saying "Now let's get out there and kick some GOP/Dem ass!" or "We're gonna absolutely kill them." if someone is pretty clearly - to a reasonable person - talking about ballots. Perry should have been a lot more careful but I simply can't see his comments as any sort of attempt to encourage violence, though I do rather wish he'd ratchet back on Texas Stereotype behavior.
No, if I believe there's any sort of decent indication the person really was attempting to stir up trouble of that sort I'm all for hitting them hard, and I've got zero problems telling someone who didn't mean to do it but did it that they need to learn more caution and slapping them down hard if they do a lot of repeat performances, but I do think you set the standard a touch to high. Also I didn't mean to imply you hated Perry or Hoffa, I was merely talking in general terms about people who apply situational ethics and partisan bias with a very free hand when setting their standards. I've no issue with trying to set a more civil tone but I also can't condemn someone for their choice of words, civil or not, if I don't believe they either had intent to incite violence or really went outside the safe zone either repeatedly or with little legit cause for a mistake.
No, if I believe there's any sort of decent indication the person really was attempting to stir up trouble of that sort I'm all for hitting them hard, and I've got zero problems telling someone who didn't mean to do it but did it that they need to learn more caution and slapping them down hard if they do a lot of repeat performances, but I do think you set the standard a touch to high. Also I didn't mean to imply you hated Perry or Hoffa, I was merely talking in general terms about people who apply situational ethics and partisan bias with a very free hand when setting their standards. I've no issue with trying to set a more civil tone but I also can't condemn someone for their choice of words, civil or not, if I don't believe they either had intent to incite violence or really went outside the safe zone either repeatedly or with little legit cause for a mistake.
And I won't pretend I'm not a little hypersensitive about the issue given recent events (given what's happened since then it's probably a very good thing for Adam that I DIDN'T inform Norwegian authorities about his statement he was coming here to kill me for my beliefs.... ) Part of what angers me is politicians who respond to political violence with what amounts to no more than "that's too bad, but so what?" and seem to take it as personal challenge to use even more violent rhetoric. On the other hand, making people angry isn't a crime, and shouldn't be. Provoking violent anger, however, does seem to fall within the definition of reckless endangerment, whether intentional or not; just because someone is too stupid to REALIZE it's dangerous to text while driving doesn't absolve them of guilt or preclude prosecution for it. We probably can't establish a comprehensive standard, draw a line to easily identify what approaches, skirts and crosses it, but that's why we have juries.
The court of public opinion is a much easier matter; to recycle a favorite reference to your source, "just don't look, just don't look." To be clear, I'm not saying ignore it and it will go away, but when people negligently rather than deliberately provoke violence we should restrict our attention to calling them on and condemning it, then politically ostracize them as beneath our contempt, let alone support. A slip of the tongue is one thing; everyone makes mistakes and mispeaks, but a pattern of such behavior represents (at least) an indefensible lack of judgement in a would be leader.
Unfortunately, one of the things that appears to have changed in modern American politics is that calling a politician on shameful language is dismissed as a purely partisan opposition attack, and things that would have resulted in red faced public apologies a generation ago now result in brazen defiance. If tomorrows papers criticize me calling my opponent a puppy rapist that's just more typical "gotcha" politics from the MSM, so I should stand by my puppy rapist accusation and not give in to media tyranny from Them. What alarms me is that that kind of attitude isn't shunned, but instead increasingly supported. Even Ron Paul (no friend of the Fed or stranger to populism) said Perry went too far in calling Bernanke a traitor, but the comment still did nothing to slow Perry meteoric rise in the polls; if anything it HELPED--just as he intended. He got the reward he sought at no cost, and as long as that's how these things go he'll have plenty of company. I didn't need Hoffas recent comments to tell me he and his organization are a blot on the record of organized labor, that, particularly in light of things like what happened to his father, they justifiably frighten the general public, but it's a fine argument for rescinding the great political power with which he clearly can't be trusted.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Hoffa Threatens GOP At Obama Event: "Take These Son Of Bitches Out"
05/09/2011 07:42:59 PM
- 832 Views
erm, isn't that that guy who died/vanished mysteriously ages ago? *NM*
05/09/2011 08:46:20 PM
- 220 Views
This is junior.....apple doesn't fall far does it? *NM*
05/09/2011 09:01:47 PM
- 194 Views
I'm pretty sure it's actually his zombie... and what, no in the title? *NM*
05/09/2011 09:14:42 PM
- 199 Views
I decided to give everyone a short break from the thumbs, it's a Labor Day present! *NM*
05/09/2011 10:22:44 PM
- 216 Views
Violent rhetoric from the teamsters is not surprising
05/09/2011 09:27:54 PM
- 600 Views
I was sans internet after the 1st.
12/09/2011 10:32:55 PM
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Fair enough
12/09/2011 11:03:10 PM
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Re: Fair enough
13/09/2011 12:47:19 AM
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No disagreement in principle
13/09/2011 03:55:19 AM
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Sounds like our only disagreement is over where to strike the balance.
15/09/2011 12:36:50 PM
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you think saying we would treat someone ugly is grounds for prosecution. Now that is scary *NM*
12/09/2011 11:32:24 PM
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Yeah, he left it vague enough to avoid responsibility for anything a supporter did at his urging.
13/09/2011 12:53:34 AM
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you mena he left it vague enough for people who really want to believe it was a threat
13/09/2011 02:01:29 PM
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I'm still not sure what non-threatening hostile ACTS you think he was suggesting.
13/09/2011 02:34:09 PM
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Yeah, cause violent rhetoric works so well with Liberal Ideology.
05/09/2011 10:54:11 PM
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Obama/WH = coward.....no comment on remarks by union d-head.
06/09/2011 04:50:42 PM
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And yet, you never expect GOP leadership to call out their hotheads.
06/09/2011 06:31:14 PM
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no the definition of hypocrisy would be the none stop whining about tone we hear from the left
06/09/2011 06:51:52 PM
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If you'll notice, I have condemned it in this thread. twice.
06/09/2011 07:12:54 PM
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yes but only so you could make your "but the republicans are worse" comments
06/09/2011 08:07:37 PM
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random is right - I/my side weren't the ones whining about civility for months.....
06/09/2011 08:29:12 PM
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I would be dissappointed in Obama if he did apologize. The video you watched was doctored.
08/09/2011 01:35:39 AM
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when you compare what Hoffa said vs what people got upset about Palin saying Palin wins
08/09/2011 05:03:18 AM
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That was stupid too. I just want to throttle people when they get stupid about interpreting crap
09/09/2011 01:37:02 AM
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So nobody at all bothered to look for an unedited version of the speech? Really?
08/09/2011 12:04:50 AM
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I did, but it's not really pertinent to most of our comments
08/09/2011 04:02:42 AM
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I'm not so much objecting to him as much as I am advocating having him shot by Pinkertons *NM*
08/09/2011 05:37:10 AM
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I am tired of anyone getting their panties in a bunch on purpose because they choose to interpret
09/09/2011 01:43:14 AM
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For me that video changes nothing; his rhetorical imagery was unacceptably violent.
12/09/2011 10:28:00 PM
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I don't think that we can afford to watch every single little thing we say and obliterate any
13/09/2011 12:56:34 AM
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Terms from fighting probably can't be ignored; terms from war can be.
13/09/2011 02:07:17 AM
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