Active Users:957 Time:14/11/2024 05:58:13 AM
Re: Fair enough Joel Send a noteboard - 13/09/2011 12:47:19 AM
And in their case it often tends not to be rhetoric, I'm moderately indifferent though I am a bit curious to see if anyone will call him out on it who previously threw a fit about violent rhetoric.

And didn't hear about it until trzaskas thread here, but it's every bit as bad as the rhetoric in which Perry and Palin have indulged (in fact, I think it's probably worse). As I said of them and reiterated to Tash now, in the current tense climate we can't afford to go around casting our political conflicts as "wars" in which our supporters are "armies" who must "take out" opponents, then excuse it by simply tacking on "peacefullyofcourse" as an afterthought. Desperate angry zealots do enough deadly things without political leaders actively inciting them; anyone who does that deliberately lacks the decency to lead and anyone who does so thoughtlessly lacks the judgement.

At least you're consistent, and on this so am I. I do feel Hoffa stepped beyond the line of civility, but not beyond the line of acceptable, or at least, not far beyond, and only the teamster's not-undeserved reputation for violence even makes me throw a flag down. People, especially public figures speaking at events, do need to watch their language and avoid anything that might make a marginally rational person seriously consider violence, and I think Hoffa's words to that audience definitely comes close if not exceeding that safety line but for the most part the standard I hold people to is not much below what I'd consider incitement to riot. Make no mistake, I do think politicians, especially in prepared remarks, should pick their words with care, but I'd not want to see, say, a pro-lifer speaking before a pro-life crowd say "Those who favor abortion have developed bunker mentality, refusing to compromise on any proposal, well we've got to adapts our bombs to break those places where the abortionists hide" thrown to the wolves for what would be, I think we agree, an absolutely horrible jaw-dropper choice of wording, and I'll extend Hoffa that same courteous if grudgingly.

What concerns me, apart from the obvious (i.e. that moving to Norway apparently made me MORE rather than LESS likely to suffer violence for my political beliefs), is that people attending political rallies are usually already amped up on emotions and feeling confrontational toward political foes, and that millions have lost their jobs, homes and/or life savings while tens of millions wonder if they're next. That's not just a crowded theater, it's a theater crowded with people who smell smoke and see flickering lights; even the whisper of "fire" could start the stampede. I realize that it's impossible to avoid all phraseology that CAN be construed violently, but the danger to public safety when a figurative phrase is taken literally makes it imperative to be clear that a violent metaphor is ONLY a metaphor, and to restrain the violence of ones imagery as much as possible to avoid tragic misunderstandings. Hoffa didn't even try; it almost seemed like he was deliberately using violent imagery, and given events of the past year that seems recklessly irresponsible. As I'm sure you recall, just next door to MI people threatened to bomb the offices of legislators who voted for Scott Walkers bill busting public unions, so for Hoffa to show up now telling his "army" to wage "war" and "take the SOBs out" is alarming however I feel about public or any other unions.

EDIT: And just to be clear, I'd fully support prosecuting Hoffa for reckless endangerment in response to his comments, just as I would Perry in response to his comments about Bernanke etc. etc. It's vitally important that inciting violence is tolerated no more in those with whom we share political goals than in those we oppose; it MUST be unacceptable in EVERYONE.


We've discussed this before, and as I've said, I fully support prosecuting those - especially those holding or seeking high office - who are actually inciting violence. But there must be mens rea, and even short of prosecution and conviction where that must be reasonably proven, in the court of public opinion I for one expect at least a little bit more proof of that then "I hate the guy, so he clearly meant to incite violence." I do not believe for a moment that Perry meant to incite violence, nor has he apparently done so, and lacking much beyond my dislike for Hoffa and the Teamsters, I've nothing to backup a claim that he intended to incite violence, so I won't accuse him of it.

I don't hate Hoffa or Perry, and my feelings about them have little bearing on how I feel about their comments. I'm pretty supportive of private industry unions; can even see valid reasons for closed shops--that still doesn't excuse someone who feels the same way telling me or any other POLITICAL allies to wage war and take out political opponents simply because he slips in a passing mention of the ballot box every ten minutes or so. I don't think he or Perry INTENDED violence, but do think they intended suggestively violent rhetoric to incite people to POLITICAL action without stopping to consider that by using such strongly violent rhetoric they could instead incite their followers to PHYSICAL, violent, action. If that's the case they aren't bright enough to be trusted with leadership of anything, but there's also the more alarming possibility that they recognized the risk and left their comments vague enough (in Perrys case) or threw in a few qualifying disclaimers (in Hoffas) to give themselves cover in case someone did take them literally. If that's the case they aren't responsible enough to be trusted with leadership of anything.

It's one thing to try to engage an audience emotionally and thereby provoke a response; that's been recognized as a valid rhetorical principle since the Greeks first formalized the discipline in the course of inventing democracy. However, when the language used is consciously, deliberately and extremely violent we have to acknowledge that greatly hightens the risk that we've crossed the line from confrontational language inciting political action to literally combative language inciting violent action. Telling a crowd of angry anxious supporters that "we must slaughter our foes, burn their houses and eat their children!" doesn't become innocuous just because we whisper "metaphorically, at the polls, of course" at the end. The only thing worse than doing that and crying crocodile tears when a supporter suits deeds to ones words is playing martyr when called on it in the wake of a tragedy one helped create.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Hoffa Threatens GOP At Obama Event: "Take These Son Of Bitches Out" - 05/09/2011 07:42:59 PM 834 Views
What a douchbag *NM* - 05/09/2011 08:37:00 PM 181 Views
Violent rhetoric from the teamsters is not surprising - 05/09/2011 09:27:54 PM 600 Views
I was sans internet after the 1st. - 12/09/2011 10:32:55 PM 467 Views
Fair enough - 12/09/2011 11:03:10 PM 501 Views
Re: Fair enough - 13/09/2011 12:47:19 AM 487 Views
No disagreement in principle - 13/09/2011 03:55:19 AM 596 Views
No, union leaders = criminals, union leaders = thugs. - 05/09/2011 09:43:25 PM 529 Views
Yeah, cause violent rhetoric works so well with Liberal Ideology. - 05/09/2011 10:54:11 PM 488 Views
of course it does you just live in denial *NM* - 06/09/2011 01:39:03 AM 263 Views
Shows what you know. I've never even BEEN to Egypt. *NM* - 06/09/2011 03:15:17 PM 181 Views
So nobody at all bothered to look for an unedited version of the speech? Really? - 08/09/2011 12:04:50 AM 577 Views
I did, but it's not really pertinent to most of our comments - 08/09/2011 04:02:42 AM 404 Views
I am tired of anyone getting their panties in a bunch on purpose because they choose to interpret - 09/09/2011 01:43:14 AM 723 Views
+1 *NM* - 12/09/2011 11:30:52 PM 284 Views
You're preaching to the choir - 12/09/2011 11:46:08 PM 521 Views
For me that video changes nothing; his rhetorical imagery was unacceptably violent. - 12/09/2011 10:28:00 PM 490 Views
I don't think that we can afford to watch every single little thing we say and obliterate any - 13/09/2011 12:56:34 AM 453 Views
Terms from fighting probably can't be ignored; terms from war can be. - 13/09/2011 02:07:17 AM 564 Views
get your facts straight - 13/09/2011 03:39:29 AM 432 Views
I did: "Addressing a political rally in Iowa on Monday... - 13/09/2011 04:26:57 AM 651 Views

Reply to Message