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That's an interesting point about the NEED for fossil fuels as a stepping stone to advanced culture. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/08/2011 12:33:59 PM
Evolution is the affect of natural selection and like it or not we are part of nature. The actions and behaviors of birds affect how they evolve and the actions and behaviors of humans affects how we evolve. Evolution isn't a ladder where some creature are higher than others it is simple the result of selection. There is a real question about how our technology will affect our evolution but if we select for dumb and lazy then that is evolution as just as much as selecting for fast and smart.

We're really discussing how probable it is for a large brained organism to develop for which complex language is feasible, since that's the most obvious route to technology. If we consider that the nominal top of ladder after which random traits and mutation tend to take orders of magnitude longer to produce useful traits than innovation does... like developing coats and houses as opposed to mutating thicker fur... I think we can meaningful use the concept. The threads not really about evolution so bogging down on it doesn't achieve much. Though honestly I think Aerocontrols gave the best criticism of the article thus far, I brought up evolutionary ladder just as a reminder that the more obvious routes to an a species with a tech culture are not likely to be incredibly harmonious and peaceful.

The core point I was trying to get at was that a tech culture would tend to lean toward applauding efficiency and likely in the context of increasing their own numbers and improving their lot, since they'd naturally tend to be survival oriented and that's basically what tech is for, the conscious application of knowledge to do what otherwise is only achieved by thousands of generation of slow selection for beneficial mutation. I could see certain tendencies to trend toward certain ethical systems, such as a value for intelligence or creativity, but I think it's a big stretch to assume effective militant environmentalism would be the norm. Mostly though, I can't really see anyone getting to even the low end of spacefaring without having used fossil fuels at some point, since they'd be virtually inevitable to be around and give a big leg up to whichever part of the civilization decided to use them, making it a dubious proposition they'd turn xenocidal on anyone using them, except under the 'interstellar prick' clause where it's just a cheap excuse to wipe out possible competition... in which case their alleged moral superiority seems fairly irrelevant. One also can't hep but point out that the theoretical space hippies would apparently place great value on the diversity of life, which would make truly massive efforts at interstellar acts of genocide seem rather out of character.

I'm not aware (perhaps because I'm an Earthling ) of any other non-nuclear energy source nearly as compact. You'd need to carry around a small forest to give a car as much energy through wood as it gets from octane, and then you're into the classic fuel/mass ratios on which aero has probably spent a lot more time than he'd like. Then there's plastics; the plastics revolution would probably have been impossible without an existing petrochemical industry, and then we'd have been forced to make everything on our spacecraft out of generally much heavier and harder to work metal. A civilization might be able to get by without fossil fuels if they went straight to nuclear fission (or fusion), but the idea of achieving safe, efficient and commercially available nuclear power (let alone something like matter/anti-matter energy) without a fairly well developed knowledge of hydrocarbon chemistry seems patently absurd. And they'd still probably need plastics to get very far in space (though I suppose with enough nuclear fuel they could synthesize plastics without caring how inefficient it is).

What makes it interesting is that fossil fuels are just that: They aren't even possible except places where a large amount of biomass has existed for a very long time. At the risk of anthrocentrism, the rather logical argument that a fossil fuel phase is necessary to develop interstellar technology means that even without the time it takes for natural selection to produce a species with that much intelligence it would still only be possible on a planet where life had existed in ample supply for millions of years. It might not take as long on a much larger terrestrial planet that has more gravity, mass and pressure to compress the biomass, but you'd still need the biomass itself. Just another factor for the Fermi Paradox equation, I suppose....
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If ever there was a reason to cut greenhouse gas emissions - 19/08/2011 10:14:00 AM 864 Views
I've seen Start Trek, I know the real threat is you killing whales. - 19/08/2011 10:34:08 AM 523 Views
I know - 19/08/2011 10:36:22 AM 472 Views
You make a fair point - 19/08/2011 11:22:53 AM 447 Views
Re: You make a fair point - 19/08/2011 02:06:05 PM 422 Views
Re: You make a fair point - 19/08/2011 02:10:43 PM 420 Views
It's the other other white meat. - 19/08/2011 07:13:19 PM 476 Views
There's so much wrong with that - 19/08/2011 01:08:57 PM 503 Views
"They don't recycle; kill them all. " - 19/08/2011 07:11:15 PM 498 Views
Very Space Hippy - 19/08/2011 10:39:10 PM 516 Views
It's still debatable whether we've abandoned the evolutionary ladder. - 19/08/2011 11:16:58 PM 592 Views
we should abdon the myth of the evolutionary ladder - 20/08/2011 11:49:35 PM 386 Views
Well, for this context I think the use is okay - 21/08/2011 11:59:19 AM 464 Views
That's an interesting point about the NEED for fossil fuels as a stepping stone to advanced culture. - 21/08/2011 12:33:59 PM 564 Views
Not a need, just an edge - 21/08/2011 02:06:23 PM 379 Views
yes I was just jumping into the middle of the discussion. - 22/08/2011 03:03:49 PM 424 Views
and we wonder why so many people ignore "scientist" - 19/08/2011 01:17:38 PM 520 Views
Think it's better to ignore "reporters on a slow news day," to be honest *NM* - 19/08/2011 02:38:23 PM 192 Views
Or even acquire a sense of humour. *NM* - 19/08/2011 08:36:07 PM 214 Views
That was the City of Pearl series by Karen Traviss - 19/08/2011 02:04:51 PM 487 Views
Re: That was the City of Pearl series by Karen Traviss - 19/08/2011 02:06:27 PM 445 Views
Hypothetical aliens are perfectly wise - 19/08/2011 06:24:13 PM 435 Views
You may be confusing aliens with God. - 19/08/2011 07:08:01 PM 459 Views
Not confused - 19/08/2011 11:41:56 PM 478 Views
It's a an amusing disconnect to watch. - 20/08/2011 12:25:00 AM 474 Views
Naturally. - 19/08/2011 08:36:28 PM 561 Views
So, basically, we're the poor white trash of the universe. - 19/08/2011 07:06:23 PM 521 Views

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