I can't really argue with anything you've said here, so I won't try.
Joel Send a noteboard - 09/08/2011 11:11:17 PM
It looks like some officers my have used deadly force to stop looters but it can't even be shown who authorized it. This was one of the worst police departments in the country, they even have video of some of their officers looting. The tone seems to be that at least after the fact shooting of looters was not supposed to be policy. Either way I think the article supports my argument that regardless of the fact that the laws allows for looters to be shot it is not accepted practice in modern America.
I personally don't have an opinion on if the UK should declare martial law, their local leaders have a much better idea of what is happening than I do and since they are the ones who will answer for the results I will let them make the decisions. In the long run this riot isn't the real problem. England and the rest of the western world needs to question our methods in the care and feeding of the idle poor. Hordes of young people with lots of time and little prospect of changing their life are dangerous to society and no one seems to know what to do with them. We keep hearing that education is the answer and it is part of the answer but so far all it has done is given an escape for a select few while leaving the masses no beter off than before. I don't know what the answer is but someone needs to think of something pretty fast.
I personally don't have an opinion on if the UK should declare martial law, their local leaders have a much better idea of what is happening than I do and since they are the ones who will answer for the results I will let them make the decisions. In the long run this riot isn't the real problem. England and the rest of the western world needs to question our methods in the care and feeding of the idle poor. Hordes of young people with lots of time and little prospect of changing their life are dangerous to society and no one seems to know what to do with them. We keep hearing that education is the answer and it is part of the answer but so far all it has done is given an escape for a select few while leaving the masses no beter off than before. I don't know what the answer is but someone needs to think of something pretty fast.
It's not SOP, no, and it was a bit cavalier of me to imply looters are routinely shot during American riots; once martial law is declared (and sometimes even before) it's definitely on the table though. The sad and simple fact is that in a community wide riot, just as in places like Iraq, neither police nor military have the manpower ratios or calm overall environment that make it possible to preserve Bill of Rights guarantees without inviting mobs to slaughter peace officers (or peace keepers, as the case may be) en masse. That doesn't mean all due consideration shouldn't be given to the rights of those in custody, but if they belligerently resist arrest individually talking down 25,000 armed violent rioters is just not an option. I think the article is representative of general law enforcement and military reluctance to just open fire on people with armloads of electronics--but I also think that a seemingly uncontrollable week of unrestrained violence in L.A. disipating almost instantly once the National Guard arrived is testament to the positive effect of allowing looters to be shot on sight during martial law, and having that policy widely known.
As to urban blight... if there were easy answers someone would've found one by now. It's that alienation thing again; when disenfranchisement becomes an institutionalized norm for whole communities you get a lot of desperate resentful people prone to irrational and sometimes dangerous reactions. That's not confined to the inner city; the Tea Party won sixty House seats by tapping into that same disempowered belligerence in rural America and even suburbia. It's why kids in Compton deal drugs and kids from Egypt to Pakistan strap bombs to their chests. It's driven some hopeless people to fly planes into buildings, and while some of them were brainwashed religious fanatics, one of them was a previously normal American who just had too much and snapped one day.
I don't know the solution when the promise of a better life through education is belied by statistics that say it's the exception rather than the rule and most people born into that environment will die there at a young age. I think it starts by rebuilding a sense of cohesive community so people don't feel isolated and overmatched, at war with the whole world conspiring against them and eager to embrace even the most violent groups offering the solidarity, support and inclusion they desperately want but find nowhere else. Government has a constructive, a vital, role there, but it remains to be seen whether anyone IN government is willing or able to fulfill it; in this crisis government isn't the problem, but diconnected and apathetic elected officials neglecting the public service for which they were elected definitely are.
The only thing I can say for certain is that alienation continues apace and something's gotta give, probably sooner rather than later. The biggest reason to find a solution for our millions of unempowered citizens isn't some benevolent feel good sense of charity, but the stark reality that if we don't find a way to address their problems peacefully they will inevitably force a less peaceful confrontation no one wants. That's why a millionaire insider trader like Joe Kennedy said he'd gladly give up half of all he had to keep the other half in security: If you try to hold onto everything you lose everything. I think that's a lot of what's happening here and, as in L.A., the answer to why they aren't looting upper class homes and businesses instead of their equally impoverished neighbors is that if they did that they WOULD be shot. Most people know von Clausewitzs famous quote that war is the continuation of politics by other means, but most people also miss his real point: When compromise is impossible, when the political process can no longer gain what one group needs to survive (or thinks it does), that group won't simply shrug their shoulders and crawl off into a corner to die, they'll shrug their shoulders and turn to violent militance as their only remaining option.
Whatever the answer, I hope we find it soon; I hope we have time....
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 09/08/2011 at 11:15:19 PM
London
08/08/2011 12:08:35 PM
- 1831 Views
It's pretty scary.
08/08/2011 02:19:51 PM
- 934 Views
I found it somewhat last night, having a sister who lives in Brixton
08/08/2011 02:50:57 PM
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Continue to use live ammunition until no one is protesting. *NM*
08/08/2011 03:53:50 PM
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Sounds good to me *NM*
08/08/2011 04:06:04 PM
- 484 Views
Okay, bored of these riots now, time for the police to follow 10CCs example...
08/08/2011 09:28:36 PM
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Given what has been reported
08/08/2011 04:07:13 PM
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So, did the original suspect have a gun/fire bullets?
09/08/2011 04:19:16 PM
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Had a gun, didn't fire
09/08/2011 06:51:54 PM
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Not actually true
09/08/2011 07:01:33 PM
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Seems it isn't exactly but I'm not sure your reply is 100% true either
09/08/2011 07:27:00 PM
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There's no evidence he didn't fire? Imagine that.
09/08/2011 11:22:05 PM
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He's saying the evidence available is inconclusive either way.
09/08/2011 11:37:06 PM
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Fair enough.
09/08/2011 11:56:16 PM
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There are various proofs
10/08/2011 12:06:41 AM
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True, but if tests are inconclusive rather than merely incomplete those proofs may not be available.
10/08/2011 12:47:34 AM
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I do see why it matters if he fired or not
10/08/2011 12:46:12 AM
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Again, I don't know the British standard, so I can only guess how it works.
10/08/2011 12:54:20 AM
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Though if he had a gun, in a sock, not drawn...
10/08/2011 01:50:05 AM
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sadly the rioters didn't wait for facts
10/08/2011 02:56:46 AM
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...said Gaddafi. *NM*
10/08/2011 12:11:31 AM
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And?... *NM*
10/08/2011 12:17:51 AM
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And we just went to war with him because he was shooting people in the street.
10/08/2011 09:56:07 AM
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Last time I checked, you guys have a vote. First past the post, sure, but it's still a vote.
10/08/2011 04:33:07 AM
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Is there any other country that has a death penalty for children caught stealing? *NM*
10/08/2011 10:02:56 AM
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Maybe not, but we can hope there is... *NM*
10/08/2011 02:04:38 PM
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You can hope there is.
10/08/2011 02:21:17 PM
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...you guys need a poster named Tam, and a sitcom, stat. *NM*
10/08/2011 05:11:57 PM
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Wibble is called Tam (Scots) or Tom (English), and used to go by dragon_tam.
10/08/2011 05:27:16 PM
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If you want to talk statistics...
13/08/2011 08:26:39 PM
- 857 Views
So the death penalty is a deterrent for the crimes it doesn't apply to, but not for those it does?
14/08/2011 10:58:14 AM
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They think they have a good reason for what they're doing
10/08/2011 11:48:52 AM
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If they react even more indignantly to a harsh crackdown, maybe they do.
10/08/2011 02:06:04 PM
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This is the first I've heard of it; here's hoping and praying the damage is restricted to property
08/08/2011 06:59:06 PM
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I am sure
09/08/2011 06:34:40 PM
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I don't recall mentioning any of those groups in connection with this.
09/08/2011 07:29:01 PM
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You will. *NM*
10/08/2011 12:14:22 AM
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I've had plenty of opportunites and still didn't, even when rt practically teed one up for me.
10/08/2011 12:25:09 AM
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This is utterly awful.
08/08/2011 09:41:46 PM
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Yeah - it has massively spread today. Just saw footage of youths looting a Sainburys in Birmingham
08/08/2011 09:52:32 PM
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And if they had got the army out
08/08/2011 09:57:40 PM
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They call it "martial law" for a reason.
09/08/2011 02:30:40 AM
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Might work in the US
09/08/2011 02:13:50 PM
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When most of the looters are kids I can see how that would be problematic.
09/08/2011 05:18:09 PM
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Joel I don't believe any looters were shot in the Rodney King riots
09/08/2011 05:41:44 PM
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Police were, from what I understand, hard to find during those riots.
09/08/2011 05:51:11 PM
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I am just questioning the logic of the debate taking place here
09/08/2011 06:33:11 PM
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Your notoriously faulty memory is by far the lesser problem here.
09/08/2011 07:14:07 PM
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OK I blame the site for this random double post. I hit submit once.
09/08/2011 08:55:17 PM
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I can't really argue with anything you've said here, so I won't try.
09/08/2011 11:11:17 PM
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so now you are comparing the rioters to the Tea Party? I guess dartboard was almost right
10/08/2011 12:51:46 AM
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I'm comparing alienation to alienation and noting that it's pervasive.
10/08/2011 01:19:49 AM
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Seriously, is it mostly kids?
08/08/2011 10:08:00 PM
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A hell of a lot seem to be
08/08/2011 10:12:21 PM
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I know that if I had ever participated in anything like that, my mother would have kicked my ass.
09/08/2011 08:48:09 PM
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Tumblr blog where ppl are submitting pictures of the looters
09/08/2011 12:49:39 PM
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Before and after pictures of buildings/businesses from BBC
09/08/2011 02:12:24 PM
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Never figured the Iranian government for having much of a sense of hunour,
09/08/2011 02:26:01 PM
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The hypocricy there is mind-boggling. *NM*
09/08/2011 05:03:28 PM
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I imagine that's the point.
09/08/2011 05:33:09 PM
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To be fair
09/08/2011 06:24:58 PM
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i can see the smoke from the sony factory fire out of my bedroom window
09/08/2011 07:21:08 PM
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This is all quite... surreal. It's hard to believe.
09/08/2011 08:54:57 PM
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The surreal thing is London is still full of tourists who seem to not have a care in the world
09/08/2011 09:03:11 PM
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She has a grandson to meet for the first time, then she's off traveling with a friend.
10/08/2011 03:27:37 AM
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Well to clarify, it isn't that I think it is very unsafe just not a good time to go somewhere
10/08/2011 10:19:03 AM
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I have been keeping an eye on it; we have friends in Highbury
10/08/2011 05:07:16 AM
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Re: I have been keeping an eye on it; we have friends in Highbury
10/08/2011 10:47:46 AM
- 1008 Views