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I can't really argue with anything you've said here, so I won't try. Joel Send a noteboard - 09/08/2011 11:11:17 PM
It looks like some officers my have used deadly force to stop looters but it can't even be shown who authorized it. This was one of the worst police departments in the country, they even have video of some of their officers looting. The tone seems to be that at least after the fact shooting of looters was not supposed to be policy. Either way I think the article supports my argument that regardless of the fact that the laws allows for looters to be shot it is not accepted practice in modern America.

I personally don't have an opinion on if the UK should declare martial law, their local leaders have a much better idea of what is happening than I do and since they are the ones who will answer for the results I will let them make the decisions. In the long run this riot isn't the real problem. England and the rest of the western world needs to question our methods in the care and feeding of the idle poor. Hordes of young people with lots of time and little prospect of changing their life are dangerous to society and no one seems to know what to do with them. We keep hearing that education is the answer and it is part of the answer but so far all it has done is given an escape for a select few while leaving the masses no beter off than before. I don't know what the answer is but someone needs to think of something pretty fast.

It's not SOP, no, and it was a bit cavalier of me to imply looters are routinely shot during American riots; once martial law is declared (and sometimes even before) it's definitely on the table though. The sad and simple fact is that in a community wide riot, just as in places like Iraq, neither police nor military have the manpower ratios or calm overall environment that make it possible to preserve Bill of Rights guarantees without inviting mobs to slaughter peace officers (or peace keepers, as the case may be) en masse. That doesn't mean all due consideration shouldn't be given to the rights of those in custody, but if they belligerently resist arrest individually talking down 25,000 armed violent rioters is just not an option. I think the article is representative of general law enforcement and military reluctance to just open fire on people with armloads of electronics--but I also think that a seemingly uncontrollable week of unrestrained violence in L.A. disipating almost instantly once the National Guard arrived is testament to the positive effect of allowing looters to be shot on sight during martial law, and having that policy widely known.

As to urban blight... if there were easy answers someone would've found one by now. It's that alienation thing again; when disenfranchisement becomes an institutionalized norm for whole communities you get a lot of desperate resentful people prone to irrational and sometimes dangerous reactions. That's not confined to the inner city; the Tea Party won sixty House seats by tapping into that same disempowered belligerence in rural America and even suburbia. It's why kids in Compton deal drugs and kids from Egypt to Pakistan strap bombs to their chests. It's driven some hopeless people to fly planes into buildings, and while some of them were brainwashed religious fanatics, one of them was a previously normal American who just had too much and snapped one day.

I don't know the solution when the promise of a better life through education is belied by statistics that say it's the exception rather than the rule and most people born into that environment will die there at a young age. I think it starts by rebuilding a sense of cohesive community so people don't feel isolated and overmatched, at war with the whole world conspiring against them and eager to embrace even the most violent groups offering the solidarity, support and inclusion they desperately want but find nowhere else. Government has a constructive, a vital, role there, but it remains to be seen whether anyone IN government is willing or able to fulfill it; in this crisis government isn't the problem, but diconnected and apathetic elected officials neglecting the public service for which they were elected definitely are.

The only thing I can say for certain is that alienation continues apace and something's gotta give, probably sooner rather than later. The biggest reason to find a solution for our millions of unempowered citizens isn't some benevolent feel good sense of charity, but the stark reality that if we don't find a way to address their problems peacefully they will inevitably force a less peaceful confrontation no one wants. That's why a millionaire insider trader like Joe Kennedy said he'd gladly give up half of all he had to keep the other half in security: If you try to hold onto everything you lose everything. I think that's a lot of what's happening here and, as in L.A., the answer to why they aren't looting upper class homes and businesses instead of their equally impoverished neighbors is that if they did that they WOULD be shot. Most people know von Clausewitzs famous quote that war is the continuation of politics by other means, but most people also miss his real point: When compromise is impossible, when the political process can no longer gain what one group needs to survive (or thinks it does), that group won't simply shrug their shoulders and crawl off into a corner to die, they'll shrug their shoulders and turn to violent militance as their only remaining option.

Whatever the answer, I hope we find it soon; I hope we have time.... (8
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This message last edited by Joel on 09/08/2011 at 11:15:19 PM
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London - 08/08/2011 12:08:35 PM 1831 Views
i freaked out when i heard about that - 08/08/2011 02:09:10 PM 1067 Views
Re: i freaked out when i heard about that - 08/08/2011 02:47:16 PM 910 Views
It's pretty scary. - 08/08/2011 02:19:51 PM 934 Views
I found it somewhat last night, having a sister who lives in Brixton - 08/08/2011 02:50:57 PM 954 Views
I'm sure the media will manage to blame the police somehow - 08/08/2011 03:11:40 PM 845 Views
I've been following the story. - 08/08/2011 03:26:51 PM 911 Views
I cannot quite make out what is going on - 08/08/2011 03:27:57 PM 1063 Views
No, that's about it as far as we know - 08/08/2011 03:40:15 PM 1088 Views
Re: I cannot quite make out what is going on - 08/08/2011 03:40:21 PM 953 Views
Continue to use live ammunition until no one is protesting. *NM* - 08/08/2011 03:53:50 PM 503 Views
Sounds good to me *NM* - 08/08/2011 04:06:04 PM 484 Views
Given what has been reported - 08/08/2011 04:07:13 PM 1017 Views
So, did the original suspect have a gun/fire bullets? - 09/08/2011 04:19:16 PM 994 Views
Had a gun, didn't fire - 09/08/2011 06:51:54 PM 922 Views
Not actually true - 09/08/2011 07:01:33 PM 897 Views
Seems it isn't exactly but I'm not sure your reply is 100% true either - 09/08/2011 07:27:00 PM 995 Views
Now that's a good point - 09/08/2011 07:45:26 PM 962 Views
I think with both they're putting disclaimers in - 09/08/2011 08:56:17 PM 1004 Views
There's no evidence he didn't fire? Imagine that. - 09/08/2011 11:22:05 PM 908 Views
He's saying the evidence available is inconclusive either way. - 09/08/2011 11:37:06 PM 979 Views
Fair enough. - 09/08/2011 11:56:16 PM 1021 Views
There are various proofs - 10/08/2011 12:06:41 AM 912 Views
True, but if tests are inconclusive rather than merely incomplete those proofs may not be available. - 10/08/2011 12:47:34 AM 944 Views
Bullshit - 10/08/2011 01:12:46 AM 846 Views
If that's the case it's hard to say they overreacted. - 10/08/2011 01:22:45 AM 807 Views
I do see why it matters if he fired or not - 10/08/2011 12:46:12 AM 860 Views
Though if he had a gun, in a sock, not drawn... - 10/08/2011 01:50:05 AM 924 Views
sadly the rioters didn't wait for facts - 10/08/2011 02:56:46 AM 1048 Views
They've announced that the "unknown" gun was never fired - 10/08/2011 02:04:26 PM 936 Views
So? Are the police supposed to let him get the first shot? *NM* - 10/08/2011 03:15:59 PM 508 Views
...said Gaddafi. *NM* - 10/08/2011 12:11:31 AM 480 Views
And?... *NM* - 10/08/2011 12:17:51 AM 459 Views
Last time I checked, you guys have a vote. First past the post, sure, but it's still a vote. - 10/08/2011 04:33:07 AM 891 Views
Is there any other country that has a death penalty for children caught stealing? *NM* - 10/08/2011 10:02:56 AM 511 Views
Maybe not, but we can hope there is... *NM* - 10/08/2011 02:04:38 PM 445 Views
You can hope there is. - 10/08/2011 02:21:17 PM 904 Views
...you guys need a poster named Tam, and a sitcom, stat. *NM* - 10/08/2011 05:11:57 PM 497 Views
+1 - 10/08/2011 05:17:22 PM 906 Views
LMAO *NM* - 10/08/2011 06:22:11 PM 474 Views
If you want to talk statistics... - 13/08/2011 08:26:39 PM 857 Views
So the death penalty is a deterrent for the crimes it doesn't apply to, but not for those it does? - 14/08/2011 10:58:14 AM 1042 Views
No, that wasn't my point. - 14/08/2011 09:39:14 PM 1011 Views
light yagami felt the same way - 14/08/2011 01:20:02 PM 1013 Views
Please speak English. *NM* - 14/08/2011 09:39:46 PM 490 Views
They think they have a good reason for what they're doing - 10/08/2011 11:48:52 AM 862 Views
If they react even more indignantly to a harsh crackdown, maybe they do. - 10/08/2011 02:06:04 PM 785 Views
Oh? - 10/08/2011 04:05:55 PM 971 Views
This is the first I've heard of it; here's hoping and praying the damage is restricted to property - 08/08/2011 06:59:06 PM 955 Views
I am sure - 09/08/2011 06:34:40 PM 955 Views
I don't recall mentioning any of those groups in connection with this. - 09/08/2011 07:29:01 PM 864 Views
You will. *NM* - 10/08/2011 12:14:22 AM 475 Views
This is utterly awful. - 08/08/2011 09:41:46 PM 1041 Views
Yeah - it has massively spread today. Just saw footage of youths looting a Sainburys in Birmingham - 08/08/2011 09:52:32 PM 957 Views
And if they had got the army out - 08/08/2011 09:57:40 PM 931 Views
That's true. - 08/08/2011 10:03:03 PM 935 Views
pfft - 08/08/2011 10:23:37 PM 912 Views
I think the vast majority of people would be just fine with it - 08/08/2011 10:08:34 PM 1072 Views
They call it "martial law" for a reason. - 09/08/2011 02:30:40 AM 906 Views
Might work in the US - 09/08/2011 02:13:50 PM 955 Views
When most of the looters are kids I can see how that would be problematic. - 09/08/2011 05:18:09 PM 935 Views
Joel I don't believe any looters were shot in the Rodney King riots - 09/08/2011 05:41:44 PM 899 Views
Police were, from what I understand, hard to find during those riots. - 09/08/2011 05:51:11 PM 901 Views
I am just questioning the logic of the debate taking place here - 09/08/2011 06:33:11 PM 850 Views
Your notoriously faulty memory is by far the lesser problem here. - 09/08/2011 07:14:07 PM 1161 Views
That article supports my argument - 09/08/2011 08:55:15 PM 819 Views
OK I blame the site for this random double post. I hit submit once. - 09/08/2011 08:55:17 PM 876 Views
I can't really argue with anything you've said here, so I won't try. - 09/08/2011 11:11:17 PM 1006 Views
so now you are comparing the rioters to the Tea Party? I guess dartboard was almost right - 10/08/2011 12:51:46 AM 932 Views
I'm comparing alienation to alienation and noting that it's pervasive. - 10/08/2011 01:19:49 AM 998 Views
and I am saying you have no idea who the tea party is - 10/08/2011 03:06:15 AM 891 Views
I guess I should've used the Progressive Caucus instead. - 10/08/2011 04:25:30 PM 963 Views
Seriously, is it mostly kids? - 08/08/2011 10:08:00 PM 845 Views
They don't have parents - 08/08/2011 10:10:07 PM 1030 Views
A hell of a lot seem to be - 08/08/2011 10:12:21 PM 919 Views
I'd be tempted to go down there with a cattle prod. - 08/08/2011 10:14:14 PM 980 Views
I think there might be too many of them - 08/08/2011 10:23:05 PM 910 Views
If that link still isn't working, try here - 08/08/2011 10:29:19 PM 851 Views
its getting absolutely mental - 08/08/2011 10:21:32 PM 910 Views
Congratulations Ken Livingstone - 08/08/2011 11:44:29 PM 947 Views
Agree on the first part - 09/08/2011 01:05:01 PM 950 Views
Um... This is the first I've read / heard about it - 09/08/2011 03:43:02 AM 873 Views
Looks a bit like a post-apocalyptic sci-fi movie - 09/08/2011 06:38:59 AM 942 Views
Apparently that's a surprisingly common error. - 09/08/2011 12:34:30 PM 964 Views
Horrible - 09/08/2011 11:18:21 AM 830 Views
Yes - 09/08/2011 12:55:00 PM 1004 Views
Tumblr blog where ppl are submitting pictures of the looters - 09/08/2011 12:49:39 PM 868 Views
People have set up the same thing on Facebook and flickr as well - 09/08/2011 01:23:42 PM 930 Views
... - 09/08/2011 04:12:55 PM 911 Views
Before and after pictures of buildings/businesses from BBC - 09/08/2011 02:12:24 PM 1049 Views
Holy crap, what is wrong with those people?? - 09/08/2011 02:23:39 PM 870 Views
how does 'they are brainless idiots' grab you? *NM* - 09/08/2011 05:03:51 PM 405 Views
What's with that last picture set? - 09/08/2011 04:39:53 PM 938 Views
Never figured the Iranian government for having much of a sense of hunour, - 09/08/2011 02:26:01 PM 978 Views
The hypocricy there is mind-boggling. *NM* - 09/08/2011 05:03:28 PM 432 Views
I imagine that's the point. - 09/08/2011 05:33:09 PM 1054 Views
That was my take on it as well - 09/08/2011 07:03:51 PM 968 Views
Re: That was my take on it as well - 11/08/2011 11:32:12 AM 1043 Views
*sprays water over laptop screen* - 09/08/2011 05:07:07 PM 921 Views
lol wow...that was a bit much *NM* - 09/08/2011 05:26:33 PM 409 Views
To be fair - 09/08/2011 06:24:58 PM 1167 Views
You make a fair point. - 09/08/2011 07:05:26 PM 842 Views
Send in the army! - 09/08/2011 11:37:15 PM 866 Views
That is just lovely. *NM* - 11/08/2011 11:27:34 AM 432 Views
Remember you're a womble! - 09/08/2011 06:49:52 PM 923 Views
Yes - 09/08/2011 07:09:35 PM 950 Views
Re: Yes - 09/08/2011 07:32:18 PM 946 Views
This is all quite... surreal. It's hard to believe. - 09/08/2011 08:54:57 PM 868 Views
The surreal thing is London is still full of tourists who seem to not have a care in the world - 09/08/2011 09:03:11 PM 872 Views
Well, it's not really anti-foreigner sentiment, is it? - 10/08/2011 01:57:55 AM 963 Views
Not yet but then it isn't pro either - 10/08/2011 10:25:13 AM 938 Views
I'm flying to the midlands tomorrow. - 10/08/2011 07:35:28 AM 907 Views
It seems to be only happening in the evenings and at night. - 10/08/2011 10:59:55 AM 815 Views
I have been keeping an eye on it; we have friends in Highbury - 10/08/2011 05:07:16 AM 1016 Views
Re: I have been keeping an eye on it; we have friends in Highbury - 10/08/2011 10:47:46 AM 1008 Views
Oi!!! - 11/08/2011 04:40:04 AM 1082 Views
Aussie, Aussie? - 11/08/2011 11:50:47 AM 991 Views
I saw Nick Griffin's twitter last night - 10/08/2011 12:23:01 PM 872 Views
Yeah, I saw he had been. He's a great little scum bag - 10/08/2011 12:47:34 PM 974 Views
*dual facepalm* - 10/08/2011 02:45:03 PM 924 Views
Effing EDL - 10/08/2011 09:28:41 PM 979 Views
I liked this blog - 11/08/2011 11:29:42 AM 882 Views
Quite good - 12/08/2011 02:57:35 PM 960 Views

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