Animals with traits that are beneficial to the environment can live longer and potentially contribute more to the gene pool.
The latter is all that matters (biological fitness, or how many viable offspring are produced) in natural selection. Lifespan and any greater purpose (benefit to the environment) are not applicable.
As I see your revision it seems you are more careful in describing NS, but does your view on NS escape being a tautology?
Since contributing to the gene pool is the only definition you give, it either has no result (the author calls that a 'lame' definition, since it isolates the proces of NS so that it no longer tries to explain evolution), or the result is a difference in the gene pool (that is: a difference in the frequencies of genes) after one or several generations, and then we have a tautology again.
'Contributing to the gene pool' is a very vague phrase to use. I clarified what I meant to make the definition more specific. Under natural selection the 'purpose' (if you will) of living is to reproduce as much as you can and leave behind as many offspring as possible. Now, you can get into genetic theories and rationalize that, every offspring will have slightly different genomes due to genetic recombination and spontaneous mutations, which can have good, bad, or neutral consequences in terms of future biological fitness (the ability to produce offspring). But it seems reasonable to me that given a diverse gene pool (which is facilitated by increased biological fitness), the population as a whole would be more likely to survive some calamity or other.
I don't understand where the tautology is in that.
I agree it is a difficult issue to get your head around, especially since there are so many different terms, words and definitions involved.
You just introduced a new one (that is: new to this discussion): 'biological fitness'. Now you define it as the ability to produce offspring.
Then you go on to say that a diverse gene pool is facilitated by increased biological fitness.
So, if a population has an increased number of offspring each generation, there is a larger gene pool and a larger population is more likely to survive a calamity.
But I'm having trouble picturing this. On the one hand you describe mechanisms that increase diversity in the gene pool (recombination and mutation, of which officially only the second does increase the diversity, since the gene pool is not only what is actually there, but also what is potentially there, but that aside). Next you say that these traits and combinations have good, bad or neutral consequences for (future) biological fitness.
So far so good, but here you seem to skip a step, for when it comes to NS, doesn't that select certain traits to live and others to die out? If not, it's not really selecting. So on the one hand mutation (and if you insist: recombination) may increase variation in the gene pool, doesn't NS decrease variation, leaving only the ones that give the most biological fitness (or eliminating those with the least biological fitness)?
This confuses me, since your next statement is: "given a diverse gene pool (which is facilitated by increased biological fitness)"
while I thought that biological fitness was limiting the diversity of the gene pool. At least at first sight.
And there still is the possibility of a tautology when NS is defined as "those with a higher biological fitness have a higher probability to contribute to the gene pool". Because giving a greater contribution in the gene pool is the definition of having a higher biological fitness. NS then describes an observation, while it pretends to explain one.
Natural selection
06/08/2011 03:51:26 PM
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selection for suitability
06/08/2011 04:18:51 PM
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Thanks for your responce
06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM
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I can't speak for LadyLorraine and won't try, but here's how I see it:
06/08/2011 06:49:49 PM
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Just a question
06/08/2011 07:18:09 PM
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Yes it can
06/08/2011 07:41:59 PM
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But how?
06/08/2011 07:52:10 PM
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Re: Just a question
06/08/2011 07:49:21 PM
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I'm not sure I understand you
06/08/2011 08:20:44 PM
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All tautologies are truisms, but not all truisms are tautologies.
06/08/2011 09:38:12 PM
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Then it is still a tautology
06/08/2011 09:45:33 PM
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You can know it's beneifical to a particular individual, but it's harder to say for populations.
06/08/2011 10:18:16 PM
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Maybe...
07/08/2011 01:55:54 PM
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I'm more inclined toward his logic, but possibly toward your conclusions.
09/08/2011 12:45:46 AM
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we can't really know ahead of time what makes a specific trait benefical in that environment
09/08/2011 06:16:02 PM
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As I understand it
06/08/2011 06:04:44 PM
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Did you perhaps mean "beneficial in the environment" rather than "beneficial to the environment"?
06/08/2011 06:34:44 PM
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yes. I did not really phrase that very clearly. *NM*
09/08/2011 06:14:11 PM
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No biggy; from what Bram said, I underestimated how well you were understood anyway.
09/08/2011 06:45:16 PM
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Hmmm... there's some truth to that
06/08/2011 06:36:35 PM
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The complexity of the problem makes it all but impossible to falsify...
06/08/2011 08:26:06 PM
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The questions go deeper
06/08/2011 08:38:31 PM
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Re: The questions go deeper
06/08/2011 09:10:32 PM
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I think I know why you don't understand my question.
06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM
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How many equation's has Moraine screwed up? *NM*
06/08/2011 09:45:36 PM
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100% I think Moriaine is a very beneficial trait that contributes a lot to the RAFO pool *NM*
06/08/2011 09:46:54 PM
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Re: Natural selection
07/08/2011 03:00:30 AM
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Thanks a lot
07/08/2011 01:38:39 PM
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2 things
07/08/2011 04:00:35 PM
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Re: 2 things
07/08/2011 04:33:00 PM
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Re: 2 things
07/08/2011 05:48:26 PM
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My best guess
07/08/2011 06:00:28 PM
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Re: My best guess
07/08/2011 06:37:58 PM
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Re: My best guess
07/08/2011 06:47:26 PM
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