My issue is that all the things that "holy water" is supposed to symbolize are the same things that regular water symbolizes.
So, if it's just a symbol, then that means it's your frame of mind that matters. If you're about to bless yourself with holy water and pray to God, it's not going to be somehow a less effective prayer if a dastardly villain has swapped out a bottle of Evian into the font. As long as you're in a prayerful state of mind, that's what counts- the water supposedly just helps you get there.
So if it's not the physical substance, but the state of mind that's important, then it follows that the physical substance is NOT important. That is, if you can achieve the same sincere, prayerful state of mind with some beads, some music, or a cup of Ramen, then everything should be just as good.
So. Now we know that the physical substance doesn't matter- all that matters is that it gets you into the right frame of mind. Holy water makes one think of purity, of life, of being refreshed. So does regular water.
Therefore, there's no reason why "normal" water (that is, not water that has been shit in, Ghav) couldn't be used in whatever rites supposedly demand "holy" water.
(Now, this all falls apart if you say that the physical substance does have some importance. But if that's the case, then we're back to "magic water," that is, water that has special properties that regular water does not.)
So, if it's just a symbol, then that means it's your frame of mind that matters. If you're about to bless yourself with holy water and pray to God, it's not going to be somehow a less effective prayer if a dastardly villain has swapped out a bottle of Evian into the font. As long as you're in a prayerful state of mind, that's what counts- the water supposedly just helps you get there.
So if it's not the physical substance, but the state of mind that's important, then it follows that the physical substance is NOT important. That is, if you can achieve the same sincere, prayerful state of mind with some beads, some music, or a cup of Ramen, then everything should be just as good.
So. Now we know that the physical substance doesn't matter- all that matters is that it gets you into the right frame of mind. Holy water makes one think of purity, of life, of being refreshed. So does regular water.
Therefore, there's no reason why "normal" water (that is, not water that has been shit in, Ghav) couldn't be used in whatever rites supposedly demand "holy" water.
(Now, this all falls apart if you say that the physical substance does have some importance. But if that's the case, then we're back to "magic water," that is, water that has special properties that regular water does not.)
I amuse myself.
A question on baptism
10/06/2011 09:21:44 AM
- 899 Views
To my knowledge, baptism does not stem from the Resurrection.
10/06/2011 11:01:17 AM
- 654 Views
What I meant
10/06/2011 11:03:08 AM
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I don't follow.
10/06/2011 11:08:07 AM
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Re: I don't follow.
10/06/2011 11:10:40 AM
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I don't keep up with RC theology much.
10/06/2011 11:15:52 AM
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Re: I don't keep up with RC theology much.
10/06/2011 11:17:53 AM
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They should, IMHO, but the difficulty of definitively saying is why Limbo was created.
11/06/2011 10:39:26 AM
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Re: They should, IMHO, but the difficulty of definitively saying is why Limbo was created.
11/06/2011 11:53:53 AM
- 483 Views
You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 11:50:53 AM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 11:52:27 AM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 11:55:01 AM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 11:58:36 AM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:16:46 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:19:16 PM
- 463 Views
Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:25:08 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:26:30 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:28:45 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:29:43 PM
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Circumcision remains common among Christians mostly for symbolic reasons as well.
11/06/2011 10:48:48 AM
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Hm, I don't know. I don't think I know any non-Jews who are circumsized that see it as a symbol
11/06/2011 04:44:02 PM
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I took a holy dip into the Ganges
10/06/2011 11:48:26 AM
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Early Christians and Jews were obsessed with purity
10/06/2011 12:56:58 PM
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Oh, I know about the historical/academic/anthropological reason
10/06/2011 01:04:43 PM
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A first responce
10/06/2011 02:09:32 PM
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Do you want a theological answer or a historical one?
10/06/2011 03:16:44 PM
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The theological. I already had a fairly good idea of the historical
10/06/2011 03:18:51 PM
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My favorite fact about baptism is that is REQUIRES water... but it can be ANY water
10/06/2011 04:31:12 PM
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That is absurd.
10/06/2011 08:37:13 PM
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It is absurd
10/06/2011 08:56:19 PM
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When your post is eviscerated, resorting to "HURR RELIGION IS DUMB" isn't a winning move.
10/06/2011 10:00:39 PM
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Psh.You can dress it up with spiritualism and semantics, but the concept boils down to "magic water"
11/06/2011 03:56:03 AM
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The point is that it's a symbol.
11/06/2011 04:45:19 AM
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I have no problem with water as a symbol
11/06/2011 04:59:52 AM
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You are totally missing the point.
11/06/2011 02:46:08 PM
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Which again, is something that sounds nice and spiritual, but doesn't actually make any sense
11/06/2011 03:46:51 PM
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your problem is you're trying to apply objective logic to religion
11/06/2011 04:13:01 PM
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I'm not, exactly. Religion has internal logic. For example, certain things are "unclean"
11/06/2011 04:40:33 PM
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Beliefs about holy water are internally logical.
11/06/2011 07:36:08 PM
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Shrug. It was on topic.
11/06/2011 08:06:16 PM
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The more I read of your posts, the more I think you fundamentally misunderstand religious symbolism. *NM*
11/06/2011 10:51:17 PM
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Let me clarify: your statements are absurd.
10/06/2011 10:14:06 PM
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Check my response to Ghav for elaboration, but basically, your argument doesn't hold
11/06/2011 04:00:18 AM
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You went from saying spit was good to saying "clean water".
12/06/2011 02:04:26 AM
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I'm completely consistent. I was just staying away from extremes for conversation's sake.
12/06/2011 09:02:02 AM
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No one from a respectable faith thinks of holy water as "magic water". Period. *NM*
13/06/2011 04:56:53 AM
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All I know, Is a Lutheran Pastor told me, b/c i was not baptised I was going to hell, and had *NM*
11/06/2011 03:44:38 PM
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I never thought of it in that way, that is why I like this site *NM*
12/06/2011 04:26:40 PM
- 229 Views