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Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel Send a noteboard - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM
Don't later models require proton decay primarily because Pati-Salam opened the door, even if the vanilla form doesn't REQUIRE it? That reduces the likelihood of other GUTs that don't also require it. I'm certainly open to them, just not aware of any save the grandaddy of all GUTs. Saying such unconceived alternatives likely lurk somewhere sounds like my argument for withholding judgement on exotic dark matter. ;) If you think that position tenable we may need to retrace our steps a bit. :P

The two cases are not easily comparable, because the current states of evidence are very different. Also, saying the correct GUT might not yet be conceived is like saying that the correct exotic dark matter particle might not yet be conceived. GUTs and exotic dark matter are both classes of theories; saying we don't know the right one in the class isn't the same as saying we should look in another class.

Your point on the difference in the evidence for each is valid. You've convinced me that the evidence strongly supports exotic dark matter; I don't think it irrefutable, but no more convincing refutation exists, nor is it likely to emerge, which is a form of supporting evidence in itself. There's no evidence against it, which also helps immensely, and is something most GUTs only wish they could say. As long as they keep predicting proton decay at levels experiment proves impossible, Pati-Salam remains the best by default, and we may be approaching a point where simply warping the theory to allow longer lived protons won't be enough, because if the half-life is so high it CAN'T be experimentally detected (bearing in mind that an experiment that can't be replicated is worthless) even a valid GUT will have left the realm of science. With that in turn in mind the distinction of exotic dark matter and GUTs as equal classes of theories also seems valid, though it also means they both raise the same potential problem that invalidating any or all known theories can't invalidate the class unless it involves invalidating some necessary common attribute.
In general, proton decay is a prediction of GUTs because they do away with conservation of baryon number. (You're right that Pati-Salam has this implicitly, though not explicitly.) It may just be that proton decay is very very suppressed, so the experimental half-life bounds of ~10^34 years would be acceptable. Some newer GUTs (utilizing supersymmetry, for example) make predictions that fit the experimental half-life bound. Supersymmetry corrections make the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces all unify at a single point. Supersymmetry also predicts a new stable particle (the lightest supersymmetric particle) which could be a dark matter candidate.

I assume it goes without saying at this point that eliminating conservation of baryon numbers would put us back at square one on MACHOs. :P I'd really REALLY like to see a new GUT that doesn't require proton decay (or strong evidence for Pati-Salam in its entirety) because of the issue to which I keep returning on GUTs: Even if protons DO decay, if they do so so rarely that we can't observe a reproducible event we don't have a viable scientific theory. It would really suck to have the right theory about something so pivotal and no way to verify it, but that seems increasingly likely; if we need a neutrino detector the size of the Moon we're screwed. Meanwhile, theories that simply revise the half-lifes lower limit upward indefinitely unnervingly remind me of the particle zoo.
I'm not sold on all of that, though I admit it has some appeal. No direct evidence yet exists. If supersymmetry is correct, we should find evidence of it at the LHC. Because of the dearth of evidence, however, this is an area where current hypotheses may just be off in the wrong direction. If that's the case, whatever actual evidence we get from the LHC should serve as a course corrector.

And that is very much as it should be. I like a neat creative theory as much as the next guy, and am all for simplifying the big questions whenever possible, but the data has to tell the story on its own. If a verifiable theory's valid, doing experiments in the area it addresses will sooner or later prove it whether anyone wants to or not. If it's not, the same experiments will prove that, too. That's THE reason why I don't want to rule out anything, however unlikely, until/unless it becomes impossible, and likewise not accept as fact anything, however probable, until/unless it becomes irrefutable. I don't really think reputable scientists need to be TOLD that, per se, but sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees, so a periodic reminder couldn't hurt. ;)
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Exciting video about the universe - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1170 Views
Cool, and true *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 356 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 881 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 819 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 758 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 859 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 791 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 686 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 721 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 821 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 898 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 742 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 694 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 774 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 700 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 772 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 713 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 931 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 740 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 808 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 758 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 878 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 843 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 842 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 1060 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 737 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 735 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 863 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 685 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1214 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 727 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 937 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 851 Views

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