I thought about first distinguishing the sin of Sodom (inhospitality to strangers) from the modern-day meaning, which helps reduce the force of Jude 7, as it would imply that only rape was meant there. I would then discuss the first commandment by God to His creation - "Be fruitful and multiply" and go from there to show how all Hebrew laws on sexuality derive from that source. Onan's sin is not providing a son for his brother. Everything else on sexuality is about making sure that the children are healthy (not sleeping with relatives), rape, or Jewish concepts of purity (the blood of menstruation making one ritually impure).
Then I would say Christianity changed this injunction slightly by shifting the emphasis of one's relationship. I would note that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, and when asked what commandments one should follow (by the rich young man), he mentions only the big ones - do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, honor your father and mother, do not bear false witness. Jesus came to fulfill the law, which means that the spirit of Christ is the sole arbiter by which everything written should be understood.
The problem is then one gets to Paul. Paul repeats the injunctions on homosexuality from the Old Testament in Romans 1:27. He then goes on a long tirade against allowing sexually immoral people into the church - essentially, you can consort with "man-screwers" (a word he makes up in 1 Corinthians) in your everyday dealings (not dealing with immoral people would force you to leave the world altogether, Paul notes) but you can't let them into your Christian community any more than you can let in adulterers, those who consort with prostitutes and those who commit other sins of sexuality because they are violating their body. Sexual indiscretion is singled out as particularly bad in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20. Homosexuality (as I mentioned, "man-screwers" in Paul's phrase - arsenokoitai) is specifically mentioned.
I think that it would be possible to then take Jesus's encounter with the adulteress in the Gospels to show that Paul's injunction that we should "never" allow them into Christian community is meant to apply to unrepentant sinners only. Indeed, the language in Romans talks about ongoing immorality and the unrepentant nature of such immorality.
The farthest a church could theoretically go without simply disregarding the passages in question (which I have, for the record, stated I don't mind as long as they're honest about it) is to say the following: "We believe that, from the context in which Paul's statements were made he is condemning a lifestyle of sinfulness of which sexual indiscretion is only a part. People who follow Christ's path who are non-promiscuous and do not engage in the 'queer lifestyle' but who are homosexual will be permitted to be members of our church on the grounds that we are not certain that they are violating Christ's commandments as we understand them. We are thus withholding our own judgment and leaving the matter to God's mercy."
However, to then say that such a person can actually LEAD just goes too far. It is a step beyond simply expressing that the church does not feel that, when one reconciles all the passages that are potentially applicable, the church cannot reject someone who wants to be a member. It is about whether or not the person in question is worthy of being an example for others. Given how thin the ice is already with respect to homosexuality even if you take such an attenuated reading of Scripture, you are pretty much too far by any means (unless you go back to the Bible as a flawed scripture and say that it represented human opinion in all these matters).
Then I would say Christianity changed this injunction slightly by shifting the emphasis of one's relationship. I would note that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, and when asked what commandments one should follow (by the rich young man), he mentions only the big ones - do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, honor your father and mother, do not bear false witness. Jesus came to fulfill the law, which means that the spirit of Christ is the sole arbiter by which everything written should be understood.
The problem is then one gets to Paul. Paul repeats the injunctions on homosexuality from the Old Testament in Romans 1:27. He then goes on a long tirade against allowing sexually immoral people into the church - essentially, you can consort with "man-screwers" (a word he makes up in 1 Corinthians) in your everyday dealings (not dealing with immoral people would force you to leave the world altogether, Paul notes) but you can't let them into your Christian community any more than you can let in adulterers, those who consort with prostitutes and those who commit other sins of sexuality because they are violating their body. Sexual indiscretion is singled out as particularly bad in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20. Homosexuality (as I mentioned, "man-screwers" in Paul's phrase - arsenokoitai) is specifically mentioned.
I think that it would be possible to then take Jesus's encounter with the adulteress in the Gospels to show that Paul's injunction that we should "never" allow them into Christian community is meant to apply to unrepentant sinners only. Indeed, the language in Romans talks about ongoing immorality and the unrepentant nature of such immorality.
The farthest a church could theoretically go without simply disregarding the passages in question (which I have, for the record, stated I don't mind as long as they're honest about it) is to say the following: "We believe that, from the context in which Paul's statements were made he is condemning a lifestyle of sinfulness of which sexual indiscretion is only a part. People who follow Christ's path who are non-promiscuous and do not engage in the 'queer lifestyle' but who are homosexual will be permitted to be members of our church on the grounds that we are not certain that they are violating Christ's commandments as we understand them. We are thus withholding our own judgment and leaving the matter to God's mercy."
However, to then say that such a person can actually LEAD just goes too far. It is a step beyond simply expressing that the church does not feel that, when one reconciles all the passages that are potentially applicable, the church cannot reject someone who wants to be a member. It is about whether or not the person in question is worthy of being an example for others. Given how thin the ice is already with respect to homosexuality even if you take such an attenuated reading of Scripture, you are pretty much too far by any means (unless you go back to the Bible as a flawed scripture and say that it represented human opinion in all these matters).
That pretty much sums up my whole attitude on the subject, and essentially its entire basis. I mean, I'm not inclined to dismiss Pauls view of practicing homosexuality, but can at least see the rationale and admit my mortal perspective prevents me being definitive, so it's not a dealbreaker among the laity; as you note, the rationales speculative nature makes the standard very different for Church leaders.
Ultimately, my problem's not with Paul, as such, but the letter from Jerusalem in Acts 15. It exempts Gentile Christians from MANY things, but explicitly forbids what's normally translated as "sexual immorality". We can parse that term, too, of course, but since the context was how much the Torah was incumbent on Gentile Christians I see no basis for defining it any way except the Torahs. That puts me in a bind; I find it quite unpleasant, but what I don't find is even a contrived escape. I can't play the "well, Paul sometimes says outright he's not speaking for God" game, because the letter explicitly invokes the Holy Spirits guidance and instruction, which I'm not willing to oppose. I'm also not merely up against Paul; I'm also athwart Peter, James and pretty much the entire earthly leadership of the Church after Christs ascension. In an authoritative statement with sweepingly liberal effect they and (according to the text) God seem to have left me no wiggle room, which further suggests that was deliberate, too. When they respond to a question about the Torahs relevance with, "it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things, " that what follows the statement is NECESSARY and defined as in the Torah doesn't seem open to debate, and allegations of biased repressive intent seem ridiculous.
Doesn't mean I LIKE it, but if Christianity were about doing what we like there'd be no need for repentance.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
- 1335 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
- 835 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
- 823 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
- 771 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
- 714 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
- 712 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
- 681 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
- 740 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
- 914 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
- 718 Views
Wow.
20/05/2011 10:15:21 AM
- 748 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
- 792 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
- 822 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
- 702 Views
Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
- 804 Views
They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
- 862 Views
Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
- 660 Views
Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
- 723 Views
My Church has a congress! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
- 366 Views
Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
- 319 Views
Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
- 344 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
- 907 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
- 738 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
- 850 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
- 790 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
- 761 Views
There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
- 835 Views
Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
- 795 Views
My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
- 801 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
- 757 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
- 678 Views
The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
- 700 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
- 662 Views
Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
- 655 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
- 631 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
- 692 Views
We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
- 799 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
- 761 Views
No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
- 638 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
- 700 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
- 675 Views
Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
- 982 Views
The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
- 726 Views
That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
- 748 Views
Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
- 685 Views
Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
- 709 Views
The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
- 847 Views
I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
- 718 Views
Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
- 301 Views
Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
- 677 Views
There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
- 617 Views