Re: Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet...
Dannymac Send a noteboard - 15/05/2011 03:18:23 PM
I'll save you most of the jargon, but in short, the section of our constitution that forbade practicing homosexuals from being Ordained to Ministry of Word and Sacrament has been lifted. It doesn't force churches to ordain homosexuals, but it allows them to do so.
First, let me wish PCUSA well, I hope this decision - which I am dubious on - does not rupture your fellowship.
If I understand this correctly, as a whole the ban is lifted but churches may still reject people on those grounds, which appeals to my localized control of things even if I can't see a scriptural justification for this. But can you, if possible, list a few other things which are still banned, or which also are, like this, left to the individual churches?
And somewhat separately, is homosexuality still being considered a sin, also separately, I gather gay marriage was also on the table, can you address that in this context?
This is one of those things that I was never quite sure would happen in my lifetime. I am extremely proud of my denomination right now. It won't be easy, and a lot of folks are likely to leave. But better folks leaving by choice then being forced out by polity, in my opinion.
Having been raised Unitarian - at least until I was old enough to look up the term 'atheist' - I can tell you that the only thing worse than a religion with doctrinal disputes is one without any, either because they permit none or can't have any. I guess the silver lining is knowing that everyone involved cares enough about the Word of God to argue about it or even break fellowship.
In order to be ordained in the Presbyterian Church, a potential Pastor they must first be a member in good standing with an individual congregation that is willing to sponsor them. Then they go through a rigorous process over the course of years, studying the scriptures, reading the theologians that went before, and undergoing independent psychological examination to determine their appropriateness for ministry. There are five tests, our ordination exams, that test competency in Exegesis (Scriptural work) Polity (Church government) Worship and Sacraments, Theology, and basic Biblical Competency. Then they are examined by their Presbytery (our most powerful level of government, comparable to counties in American Government) and finally must be called by an individual congregation.
It's not an easy process, and people are individually examined, not placed into a rubric with so many "yes" or "no" checks required. The section of our constitution that was removed was an oddity in that it created such a rubric, even if it was one with only two questions, that being of chastity in singleness and fidelity in marriage.
Those standards have not gone away, but have gone with all the others, to the discretion of the churches, presbyteries, and pastors in each individual call. Some churches may still feel that it is inappropriate to call a practicing homosexual to be their pastor, and so they won't.
Eschew Verbosity
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
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What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
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Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
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Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
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Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
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That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
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Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
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I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
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I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
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As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
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Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
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There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
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Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
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Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
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They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
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Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
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Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
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My Church has a congress! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
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Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
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Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
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I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
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Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
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Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
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Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
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I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
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There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
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Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
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My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
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Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
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I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
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The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
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You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
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Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
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If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
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On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
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We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
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Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
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No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
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So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
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The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
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Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
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The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
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That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
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Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
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Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
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The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
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I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
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Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
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Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
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There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
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Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet...
13/05/2011 07:14:01 PM
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Re: Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet...
15/05/2011 03:18:23 PM
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