As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
Tom Send a noteboard - 14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
I thought about first distinguishing the sin of Sodom (inhospitality to strangers) from the modern-day meaning, which helps reduce the force of Jude 7, as it would imply that only rape was meant there. I would then discuss the first commandment by God to His creation - "Be fruitful and multiply" and go from there to show how all Hebrew laws on sexuality derive from that source. Onan's sin is not providing a son for his brother. Everything else on sexuality is about making sure that the children are healthy (not sleeping with relatives), rape, or Jewish concepts of purity (the blood of menstruation making one ritually impure).
Then I would say Christianity changed this injunction slightly by shifting the emphasis of one's relationship. I would note that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, and when asked what commandments one should follow (by the rich young man), he mentions only the big ones - do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, honor your father and mother, do not bear false witness. Jesus came to fulfill the law, which means that the spirit of Christ is the sole arbiter by which everything written should be understood.
The problem is then one gets to Paul. Paul repeats the injunctions on homosexuality from the Old Testament in Romans 1:27. He then goes on a long tirade against allowing sexually immoral people into the church - essentially, you can consort with "man-screwers" (a word he makes up in 1 Corinthians) in your everyday dealings (not dealing with immoral people would force you to leave the world altogether, Paul notes) but you can't let them into your Christian community any more than you can let in adulterers, those who consort with prostitutes and those who commit other sins of sexuality because they are violating their body. Sexual indiscretion is singled out as particularly bad in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20. Homosexuality (as I mentioned, "man-screwers" in Paul's phrase - arsenokoitai) is specifically mentioned.
I think that it would be possible to then take Jesus's encounter with the adulteress in the Gospels to show that Paul's injunction that we should "never" allow them into Christian community is meant to apply to unrepentant sinners only. Indeed, the language in Romans talks about ongoing immorality and the unrepentant nature of such immorality.
The farthest a church could theoretically go without simply disregarding the passages in question (which I have, for the record, stated I don't mind as long as they're honest about it) is to say the following: "We believe that, from the context in which Paul's statements were made he is condemning a lifestyle of sinfulness of which sexual indiscretion is only a part. People who follow Christ's path who are non-promiscuous and do not engage in the 'queer lifestyle' but who are homosexual will be permitted to be members of our church on the grounds that we are not certain that they are violating Christ's commandments as we understand them. We are thus withholding our own judgment and leaving the matter to God's mercy."
However, to then say that such a person can actually LEAD just goes too far. It is a step beyond simply expressing that the church does not feel that, when one reconciles all the passages that are potentially applicable, the church cannot reject someone who wants to be a member. It is about whether or not the person in question is worthy of being an example for others. Given how thin the ice is already with respect to homosexuality even if you take such an attenuated reading of Scripture, you are pretty much too far by any means (unless you go back to the Bible as a flawed scripture and say that it represented human opinion in all these matters).
Then I would say Christianity changed this injunction slightly by shifting the emphasis of one's relationship. I would note that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, and when asked what commandments one should follow (by the rich young man), he mentions only the big ones - do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, honor your father and mother, do not bear false witness. Jesus came to fulfill the law, which means that the spirit of Christ is the sole arbiter by which everything written should be understood.
The problem is then one gets to Paul. Paul repeats the injunctions on homosexuality from the Old Testament in Romans 1:27. He then goes on a long tirade against allowing sexually immoral people into the church - essentially, you can consort with "man-screwers" (a word he makes up in 1 Corinthians) in your everyday dealings (not dealing with immoral people would force you to leave the world altogether, Paul notes) but you can't let them into your Christian community any more than you can let in adulterers, those who consort with prostitutes and those who commit other sins of sexuality because they are violating their body. Sexual indiscretion is singled out as particularly bad in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20. Homosexuality (as I mentioned, "man-screwers" in Paul's phrase - arsenokoitai) is specifically mentioned.
I think that it would be possible to then take Jesus's encounter with the adulteress in the Gospels to show that Paul's injunction that we should "never" allow them into Christian community is meant to apply to unrepentant sinners only. Indeed, the language in Romans talks about ongoing immorality and the unrepentant nature of such immorality.
The farthest a church could theoretically go without simply disregarding the passages in question (which I have, for the record, stated I don't mind as long as they're honest about it) is to say the following: "We believe that, from the context in which Paul's statements were made he is condemning a lifestyle of sinfulness of which sexual indiscretion is only a part. People who follow Christ's path who are non-promiscuous and do not engage in the 'queer lifestyle' but who are homosexual will be permitted to be members of our church on the grounds that we are not certain that they are violating Christ's commandments as we understand them. We are thus withholding our own judgment and leaving the matter to God's mercy."
However, to then say that such a person can actually LEAD just goes too far. It is a step beyond simply expressing that the church does not feel that, when one reconciles all the passages that are potentially applicable, the church cannot reject someone who wants to be a member. It is about whether or not the person in question is worthy of being an example for others. Given how thin the ice is already with respect to homosexuality even if you take such an attenuated reading of Scripture, you are pretty much too far by any means (unless you go back to the Bible as a flawed scripture and say that it represented human opinion in all these matters).
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
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What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
- 837 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
- 825 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
- 773 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
- 715 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
- 713 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
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I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
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I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
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As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
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Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
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There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
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Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
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Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
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They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
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Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
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Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
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My Church has a congress! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
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Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
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Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
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I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
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Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
- 740 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
- 852 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
- 792 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
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There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
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Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
- 797 Views
My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
- 803 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
- 760 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
- 680 Views
The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
- 702 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
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Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
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If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
- 633 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
- 694 Views
We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
- 801 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
- 763 Views
No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
- 640 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
- 702 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
- 677 Views
Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
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The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
- 728 Views
That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
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Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
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Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
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The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
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I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
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Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
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Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
- 678 Views
There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
- 620 Views