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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM
Perhaps so. It doesn't sound like a case of ruling out one thing ruling in another, not when we still await direct evidence of dark matter.


Exotic dark matter is the group of explanations that makes by far the most sense after a full consideration of the evidence that we have. Direct detection experiments are very important for narrowing the span of that theory space, but the current evidence overwhelmingly sends us there already.

Statements like that are what make me nervous, because you seem to be saying we know exotic dark matter is out there and are now simply refining our understanding of that known substance. Another unhypothesized approach might be accurate, but we've already found the answer so we won't bother looking for it. If you're just saying direct detection experiments will narrow the space of all possible theories that's different, of course, but if you're saying dark matter has been proven by default and we're just seeking experimental and observational evidence to better describe what we know to exist we're back where we started: We've never directly detected it, but we know it's there, so let's keep looking till we find it. Whether it actually IS there or not. I'm not confident that we'll quickly realize if it's not there because it's impossible to prove a negative; that's why there are still people looking for proton decay despite the fact it's not only unlikely to occur, but unlikely to be detectable in any reproducable way even if it does.
Maybe not centuries given the rate at which things occur today (though the first team to detect a neutrino only got a Nobel Prize for it a half century later). Blind alleys and group think remain a valid concern though, one that's more serious rather than less as theories advance. Dusting off terms like "quintessence" for dark energy doesn't exactly reassure me there. Bottomline is that any time people become so committed to a theory that they cease questioning whether it could have a fundamental flaw all the review and experimentation in the world won't help them; when the evidence conflicts with an inviolable principle the search begins, not for a more accurate principle, but for a way to reconcile the evidence with the flawed the theory. That process will last as long as a community is willing to pursue it, and is less a function of research than of the theorys social inertia. If you say that's not happening I'll accept that since you're obviously in a better position to say so, but modern science hasn't made it impossible, and the idea it has is another example of the kind of unassailable certainty that makes me nervous.

Again, these nebulous "people" supposedly becoming so committed to a theory. There are plenty of scientists who continue to look critically at the theory. Of course modern science hasn't made such a thing impossible, but it has reduced its likelihood to far below the level at which you appear to be worrying about it.

If you say so.
Interesting comment; do you think someone has a FULL understanding of the situation and evidence, or that all proposed solutions are futile?

The situation, in that context, is the breadth of the evidence, theorizing, and experiments in the field as it stands today.

It could have either meaning, but I accept that was the specific one intended.
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Exciting video about the universe Camilla - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1091 Views
Cool, and true *NM* Stephen - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 332 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. Joel - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 817 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 750 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 680 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 793 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 749 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 619 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 654 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 760 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 830 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 674 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 620 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 707 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 629 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 706 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 648 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 857 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 667 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 737 Views
Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:04 AM 989 Views
Re: Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:18 AM 991 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 681 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 800 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 772 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 764 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM 726 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM 902 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM 668 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM 950 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM 575 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM 915 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:46:30 PM 700 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 25/05/2011 12:20:10 AM 982 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:22 AM 799 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 10/06/2011 12:04:06 AM 1040 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:12 AM 805 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) Tor - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 999 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. Joel - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 698 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 664 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 780 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 614 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1132 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 658 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 850 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 776 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM 929 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:10:03 AM 686 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:33:06 AM 930 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:59:38 PM 680 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 24/05/2011 11:19:43 PM 648 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:33:58 PM 603 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 25/05/2011 12:55:36 AM 732 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:24 AM 642 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:13 AM 825 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:05 AM 803 Views
Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at Isaac - 29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM 636 Views
Potentially either, or a combination of the two. Joel - 30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM 700 Views
It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly Isaac - 30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM 615 Views
My primary objection is that alternatives to dark matter seem to have been ruled out prematurely. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:14 AM 753 Views
Well, they weren't, not really sure how else to put that Isaac - 10/05/2011 03:19:57 AM 789 Views
Alright then, objection withdrawn (cautious skepticism intact). Joel - 14/05/2011 05:34:17 AM 907 Views
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