Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
Joel Send a noteboard - 14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
The cult surrounding the God of the Ancient Hebrews has never been static. It has always evolved and adapted, and that evolution and adaptation did not end with the closing of the Canon.
From worshiping the Creator and that Creator' God of Armies (El and YHWH) to worshipping one God. Child Sacrifice forbidden. The condemnation of slavery and the claiming of Imago Dei being a human thing, as opposed to being a King thing. From a wandering Tent, to a singular temple. Paul's claim that it was possible to be a Christian without also being a Jew. (A move with, from its own perspective, a similar lack of precedent as what we are talking about now.)
Our texts guide us, and lay down the pattern. But who knows what the next step will be? For me, the answer is made clear by one thing... seeing the work of the Holy Spirit so clearly carried out through some of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. If God is going to use them in ministry, who the hell am I to exclude them?
From worshiping the Creator and that Creator' God of Armies (El and YHWH) to worshipping one God. Child Sacrifice forbidden. The condemnation of slavery and the claiming of Imago Dei being a human thing, as opposed to being a King thing. From a wandering Tent, to a singular temple. Paul's claim that it was possible to be a Christian without also being a Jew. (A move with, from its own perspective, a similar lack of precedent as what we are talking about now.)
Our texts guide us, and lay down the pattern. But who knows what the next step will be? For me, the answer is made clear by one thing... seeing the work of the Holy Spirit so clearly carried out through some of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. If God is going to use them in ministry, who the hell am I to exclude them?
By that logic we should excuse Jim Bakker cheating on his wife with his secretary and Jimmy Swaggart patronizing New Orleans prostitutes because, after all, they fed and educated impoverished children. Why should one little ongoing sin that hurt no one bar them from Church leadership? The only difference is that when the truth came out Swaggart publicly admitted to and repented his sins (however insincerely) rather than claiming the Holy Spirit had suddenly approved what he wanted despite withholding that approval from millennia of OTHER Church leaders, and countless biblical prohibitions of his actions. Sure, Paul took a big step in expanding the gospel to Gentiles, was amid even larger steps that had already made what was formerly a Jewish sect into (wait for it) an entirely distinct religion. THAT'S definitely not without precedent in Christianity; the Unitarian Church did something similar in endorsing universalism, but ultimately admitted the fait accompli: They ceased to be a Christian church when they made integral Christian doctrine optional. They had every right to do so, of course, and it made them far more inviting to many people who'd never consider Christianity, but it still amounts to doctrine more concerned with pleasing man than God.
Change is not necessarily evolution; making something more popular does not necessarily make it more holy, nor does making it more convenient make it more godly. Christianity isn't about doing what's convenient or popular; that's the wide broad road to perdition. Peoples desires don't give us a free pass on that on, even an inborn desire; no Christian should need to be told that the natural man is at odds with the Spirit of God. Sacrificing the latter for the former isn't any kind of "reconciliation", it defeats the whole purpose of the gospel. A small minority publicly proclaiming they've put their will ahead of Gods for years and will continue is an argument against, not for, ordaining them Christian priests.
It's theoretically possible all the biblical prohibitions against homosexuality, all the opinions of Church Fathers at least as Spirit led as anyone today and millennia of Church practice and tradition was somehow out of step with Gods will and He simply waited until a few decades ago to say so. I think it decidedly unlikely and the evidence against that view far greater and more compelling than the scanty evidence for it; even were that not so I would argue that since the highest goal is pleasing God, not man, we should err on the side of caution. However, since an argument CAN be made I wouldn't expel anyone from a congregation over it; I could be wrong and I won't disqualify anyone from Christianity when that risk is present. Still, the goal is pleasing God, and that the Golden Rule is but the chief means of doing so is what separates Christianity from secular humanism, so while (significant) doubt remains on the matter I think it unwise and harmful to elevate people to the priesthood who disregard all of Church teaching and history on the grounds that the Holy Spirit has conveniently told them what they wanted to do all along isn't sinful after all.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
- 1335 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
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Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
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Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
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Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
- 714 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
- 711 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
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I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
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I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
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As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
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Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
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There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
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Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
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Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
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They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
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Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
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Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
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My Church has a congress! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
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Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
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Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
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I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
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Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
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Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
- 850 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
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I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
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There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
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Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
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My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
- 801 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
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I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
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The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
- 700 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
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Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
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If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
- 631 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
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We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
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Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
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No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
- 638 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
- 700 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
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Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
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The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
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That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
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Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
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Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
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The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
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I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
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Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
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Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
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There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
- 617 Views