Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
Tom Send a noteboard - 13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
There were Valentinians, Marcionites, Ophites, Cainites, Docetists and also a church that followed Jesus but held to all the Jewish traditions.
The Bible that has been accepted as canon is the result of the triumph of one particular interpretation of who Christ was and what his message meant. It doesn't take long to figure out who that person is, since the bulk of the New Testament was supposedly written by him - Paul.
There are plenty of fascinating books that describe the controversies of early Christianity. Lost Christianities by Bart D. Ehrman is a good starting point, though I don't really like some of his terminology, which implies that the existing canon is the "right" choice even though his book doesn't. Elaine Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels talks about the nature of the alternative systems, and Who Wrote the New Testament? by Burton L. Mack is a very well-written explanation of the development of the ideas that came to dominate Christianity. Some more academic works include C.W. Griggs, Early Egyptian Christianity, A. Yarbro Collins, Cosmology and Eschatology in Jewish and Christian Apocalypticism, Alan F. Segal, Two Powers in Heaven and Michael Allen Williams, Rethinking "Gnosticism" (the last being an extremely strong book, in my opinion).
If you're interested in a more controversial take on the subject, there is Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries (along with the follow-up book, Jesus and the Lost Goddess). This book essentially starts from the standpoint that Gnostic Christianity was the "real" Christianity, that it was a mystery-cult, and that essentially a bunch of idiots who weren't initiated into the inner mysteries then went on to deny that there were any inner mysteries, thus creating standard Pauline Christianity. It's written for the lay reader and raises a lot of very good questions, though of course I think they skew their conclusions a bit. Still, I highly recommend it as something to think about and something that can help an individual re-examine what he believes and why.
However, the point of all this is that if you're wondering why Protestants never "went back" to any of these texts, it's because they'd have to throw out pretty much everything that they believed in order to incorporate the books. No vicarious salvation, no Old Testament, etc. It would essentially be a break, not from Rome, but from the New Testament as we know it.
The Bible that has been accepted as canon is the result of the triumph of one particular interpretation of who Christ was and what his message meant. It doesn't take long to figure out who that person is, since the bulk of the New Testament was supposedly written by him - Paul.
There are plenty of fascinating books that describe the controversies of early Christianity. Lost Christianities by Bart D. Ehrman is a good starting point, though I don't really like some of his terminology, which implies that the existing canon is the "right" choice even though his book doesn't. Elaine Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels talks about the nature of the alternative systems, and Who Wrote the New Testament? by Burton L. Mack is a very well-written explanation of the development of the ideas that came to dominate Christianity. Some more academic works include C.W. Griggs, Early Egyptian Christianity, A. Yarbro Collins, Cosmology and Eschatology in Jewish and Christian Apocalypticism, Alan F. Segal, Two Powers in Heaven and Michael Allen Williams, Rethinking "Gnosticism" (the last being an extremely strong book, in my opinion).
If you're interested in a more controversial take on the subject, there is Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries (along with the follow-up book, Jesus and the Lost Goddess). This book essentially starts from the standpoint that Gnostic Christianity was the "real" Christianity, that it was a mystery-cult, and that essentially a bunch of idiots who weren't initiated into the inner mysteries then went on to deny that there were any inner mysteries, thus creating standard Pauline Christianity. It's written for the lay reader and raises a lot of very good questions, though of course I think they skew their conclusions a bit. Still, I highly recommend it as something to think about and something that can help an individual re-examine what he believes and why.
However, the point of all this is that if you're wondering why Protestants never "went back" to any of these texts, it's because they'd have to throw out pretty much everything that they believed in order to incorporate the books. No vicarious salvation, no Old Testament, etc. It would essentially be a break, not from Rome, but from the New Testament as we know it.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 13/05/2011 at 02:54:40 PM
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
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What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
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Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
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Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
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Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
- 714 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
- 712 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
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I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
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I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
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As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
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Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
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There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
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Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
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Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
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They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
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Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
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Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
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My Church has a congress! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
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Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
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Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
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I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
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Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
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Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
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Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
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I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
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There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
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Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
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My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
- 801 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
- 757 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
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The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
- 700 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
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Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
- 655 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
- 631 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
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We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
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Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
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No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
- 638 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
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The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
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Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
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The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
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That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
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Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
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Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
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The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
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I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
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Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
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Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
- 677 Views
There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
- 617 Views