Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
Tom Send a noteboard - 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
Let's take each lie sentence by sentence:
That is a blatant lie. Not only are there no reliable reports that this was practiced by the Hebrews, but the line in Leviticus 18:22 is clearly not a reference to rape. Instances of rape are set off by the verb laqah, which means "to seize". Consensual sex is identified by the verb shakav, which means "to sleep". The exact wording of Leviticus 18:22 is as follows: v'et-zakar lo tishkav mishkevei ishah to'evah hi, which translates literally "and do not sleep with a man as (one) sleeps with a woman this is an abomination".
Another lie. Not only does Paul not say that (you're misquoting Leviticus from the Old Testament), but he is far clearer in what he does actually say. Your conjecture that he is talking about "the Greek tradition of wealthy men buying slaveboys to dominate" (which was really a common tradition in the ancient world, and which was augmented by the institution of pederasty, which did not involve slaves, as well as equal-age homosexual acts, since most Romans and Greeks were bisexual) is completely unsupported both by background and by the text itself. Paul says:
?????? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????????, ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ??????????? ?????????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????????????.
And in this way the men, forsaking natural relations, in their desire burned in lust one for each other, men performed indecencies upon men and received upon themselves the penalty for this delusion of theirs.
The text is clear that it is men with other men, not men with boys. They burned in their lust for ONE ANOTHER. This is a RECIPROCAL verb used with every single mark of reciprocity possible. It says specifically ??????? ?? ???????, which literally translates as "men into men". The word used is that of a full-grown man, not a child.
I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that this was the only truthful sentence you wrote, but actually, the sad part is that the Old Testament is very lenient on rape, as opposed to male homosexuals. The penalty for having sex with another man is death by stoning (Leviticus 20:13), whereas rape can lead to a variety of outcomes, one of which being forcing the rapist to marry his victim and pay money to her father (Deuteronomy 22:28). Rape can in some cases lead to death by stoning, but not in all cases. Homosexual sex in all cases leads to death by stoning.
This has just been proven to be a lie. As for lesbian sex, continue reading Paul's statement in Romans, chapter 1.
So what? You seem to have a very poor understanding of the nature of faith and salvation if that's your attitude. The forgiveness of sins by Christ is founded on the penitence of the sinner. Jesus said to the adulteress, "Go, and sin no more", not "Go, and keep doing what you've been doing". While every human is a sinner in Christian doctrine, there is a difference between sinning and asking for forgiveness, and trying not to sin again, and being comfortable with sin and professing it to not be a sin. That is pretty much the standard definition of an unrepentant sinner no matter what denomination you belong to. If the priest is a homosexual who tries to refrain from acting on his urges, then he's no different than the priest who struggles with any other sin. It's when he claims that what he's doing is okay that he has crossed a line, and a very clear one at that.
In the Old Testament, the objection was to the tradition of raping foreigners in order to establish dominance over them that was actually fairly widespread.
That is a blatant lie. Not only are there no reliable reports that this was practiced by the Hebrews, but the line in Leviticus 18:22 is clearly not a reference to rape. Instances of rape are set off by the verb laqah, which means "to seize". Consensual sex is identified by the verb shakav, which means "to sleep". The exact wording of Leviticus 18:22 is as follows: v'et-zakar lo tishkav mishkevei ishah to'evah hi, which translates literally "and do not sleep with a man as (one) sleeps with a woman this is an abomination".
Paul's words on "taking a man as if he were a woman" referred to the Greek tradition of wealthy men buying slaveboys to dominate.
Another lie. Not only does Paul not say that (you're misquoting Leviticus from the Old Testament), but he is far clearer in what he does actually say. Your conjecture that he is talking about "the Greek tradition of wealthy men buying slaveboys to dominate" (which was really a common tradition in the ancient world, and which was augmented by the institution of pederasty, which did not involve slaves, as well as equal-age homosexual acts, since most Romans and Greeks were bisexual) is completely unsupported both by background and by the text itself. Paul says:
?????? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????????, ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ??????????? ?????????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????????????.
And in this way the men, forsaking natural relations, in their desire burned in lust one for each other, men performed indecencies upon men and received upon themselves the penalty for this delusion of theirs.
The text is clear that it is men with other men, not men with boys. They burned in their lust for ONE ANOTHER. This is a RECIPROCAL verb used with every single mark of reciprocity possible. It says specifically ??????? ?? ???????, which literally translates as "men into men". The word used is that of a full-grown man, not a child.
Needless to say, rape remains firmly condemned.
I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that this was the only truthful sentence you wrote, but actually, the sad part is that the Old Testament is very lenient on rape, as opposed to male homosexuals. The penalty for having sex with another man is death by stoning (Leviticus 20:13), whereas rape can lead to a variety of outcomes, one of which being forcing the rapist to marry his victim and pay money to her father (Deuteronomy 22:28). Rape can in some cases lead to death by stoning, but not in all cases. Homosexual sex in all cases leads to death by stoning.
There are no references to consensual homosexual sex between men in the Bible (unless you want to make an argument for David and Jonathan, a positive Biblical relationship) and no mentions of lesbian sex whatsoever.
This has just been proven to be a lie. As for lesbian sex, continue reading Paul's statement in Romans, chapter 1.
Even if you ignore all of that and make the extremely tenuous argument that homosexuality is a sin, so what? If we want to make the argument that sinners can't be pastors, we won't last long.
So what? You seem to have a very poor understanding of the nature of faith and salvation if that's your attitude. The forgiveness of sins by Christ is founded on the penitence of the sinner. Jesus said to the adulteress, "Go, and sin no more", not "Go, and keep doing what you've been doing". While every human is a sinner in Christian doctrine, there is a difference between sinning and asking for forgiveness, and trying not to sin again, and being comfortable with sin and professing it to not be a sin. That is pretty much the standard definition of an unrepentant sinner no matter what denomination you belong to. If the priest is a homosexual who tries to refrain from acting on his urges, then he's no different than the priest who struggles with any other sin. It's when he claims that what he's doing is okay that he has crossed a line, and a very clear one at that.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 12/05/2011 at 05:54:13 PM
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
- 1336 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
- 837 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
- 824 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
- 772 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
- 715 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
- 713 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
- 681 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
- 741 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
- 914 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
- 718 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
- 793 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
- 822 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
- 703 Views
Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
- 805 Views
They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
- 862 Views
Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
- 661 Views
Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
- 724 Views
My Church has a congress! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
- 366 Views
Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
- 319 Views
Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
- 344 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
- 909 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
- 740 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
- 851 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
- 791 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
- 762 Views
There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
- 836 Views
Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
- 795 Views
My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
- 801 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
- 757 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
- 680 Views
The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
- 702 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
- 663 Views
Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
- 655 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
- 633 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
- 692 Views
We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
- 801 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
- 763 Views
No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
- 640 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
- 702 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
- 677 Views
Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
- 983 Views
The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
- 728 Views
That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
- 750 Views
Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
- 687 Views
Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
- 711 Views
The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
- 848 Views
I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
- 718 Views
Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
- 301 Views
Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
- 678 Views
There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
- 618 Views