There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
Joel Send a noteboard - 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
"It is better to marry than burn" is hardly a seal of approval.
For that matter, why are we letting women in the priesthood? We don't know if that's okay either. I mean, sure, we know they can be Christians, but are we sure it's okay for them to LEAD Christians? I personally am not convinced either way, and since I have trouble dealing with change I don't think anybody anywhere should take chances. Risk is just so un-Christian.
tl;dr Aren't you glad you're not a Presbyterian.
For that matter, why are we letting women in the priesthood? We don't know if that's okay either. I mean, sure, we know they can be Christians, but are we sure it's okay for them to LEAD Christians? I personally am not convinced either way, and since I have trouble dealing with change I don't think anybody anywhere should take chances. Risk is just so un-Christian.
tl;dr Aren't you glad you're not a Presbyterian.
Both in the Old and New Testaments, so Pauls particular hang ups don't bother me much, particularly given that he expressly says more than once in the NT that an opinion he's giving is just that: His opinion. That's a far cry from the consistent position throughout the text and Church history down to, what, like 10-20 years ago? forbidding practicing homosexuality. As for marriage in general, Levites were married, and saying bishops must be "the husband of only one wife" seems to make it pretty clear that they can marry at least once, even if it's open to debate whether that forbids them plural marriage, divorce and/or remarriage after their first wifes death. There's not even a scriptural suggestion priests can't marry. I've never been really clear where the prohibition came from in the Roman Catholic Church.
The cases you cite aren't nearly as ambiguous (and from the perspective of scripture, Church Fathers and historical Church practice "amibiguous" is generous when applied to practicing homosexuality). It's not a matter of simply saying "risk is un-Christian", it's a matter of a great weight of evidence arguing against the acceptable of practicing homosexuality vs. many scriptural arguments against it subjected to VERY novel and unprecedented interpretations, almost exclusively by people with a vested interest in the outcome. Generally speaking risk is fine, but when the risk offending God it's best avoided, and if a Church leader does something universally regarded as offensive to God until the last few decades s/he better have pretty solid evidence that the recent decades political decisions are more than that, and actually reflect Gods will.
TL;DR version: There are ample Old and New Testament precedents for both women Church leaders and married priests; there are none for practicing homosexual priests, and a great deal of evidence to the contrary, both of which have been reflected in Church writings and practices since. Even "it is better to marry than to burn" doesn't qualify because any homosexual couple seeking a Church marriage would've been dismissed out of hand in Moses' day, in Davids, in Pauls, in Augustines, in Aquinas' and even in C.S. Lewis'. I'm sure it would be very convenient for all of us to alter Gods will when it suits us, but that's not what Christ did in Gethsemane, is it? Whom is the Head of the Body of Christ?
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 12/05/2011 at 07:13:47 AM
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
- 1336 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
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Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
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Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
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Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
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That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
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Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
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I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
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I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
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As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
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Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
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There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
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Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
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Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
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They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
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Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
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Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
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My Church has a congress! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
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Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
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Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
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I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
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Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
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Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
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Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
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I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
- 762 Views
There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
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Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
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My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
- 802 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
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I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
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The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
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You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
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Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
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If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
- 633 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
- 692 Views
We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
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Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
- 763 Views
No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
- 640 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
- 702 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
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Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
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The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
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That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
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Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
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Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
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The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
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I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
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Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
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Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
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There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
- 618 Views