No, it's very much a feature, and that's coming from someone who shares your preference and reasons.
Joel Send a noteboard - 11/05/2011 09:44:51 PM
Nesting allows a one on one intimacy between individual posts and within subthreads that many (almost certainly most) wotmaniacs/RAFOlk have come to know and love. Ultimately, I don't think it really is easier to avoid tangents with paging (not that it's HARD, just relatively harder compared to nesting), actually, because with nesting you only see the title rather than having to scan over the whole post. It probably encourages things like threadjacks because people don't have to worry about diverting the main thread. And the fact is Ben went to a lot of time and trouble to create a RAFO interface as much like the one some members have enjoyed and felt at home with since 1999. It would be wrong to take that away from them just because a (VERY) small minority prefers another format (and I promise you it will never happen). People prefer nesting for valid reasons. That you and I don't value those reasons much doesn't diminish their value to those who do, any more than the things we value highly in paged threads is diminished by others disinterest.
I think I understand the animosity to change a little too well. I notice you referred to nesting as "the only thing that differentiates this site from other WoT sites". Drop the "other"; when RAFO was only a suggestion on the wotmania CMB the group decided it would NOT be a WoT site, and it isn't. I (accurately or not) perceive the same sentiment in the widespread distaste for WoT as in that for paging. This is how a lot of people want it, they fought hard to get it and they won't give it up any easier. Put yourself in their shoes though: Why should they give up a unique part of a site they've enjoyed for a decade, in many cases the reason they CHOSE that site and made it their own, just so people with plenty of other sites whose formats suit them MIGHT join? A fair number of people argued for and against a gradual move away from WoT (though a clear majority argued for it); the debate over nesting was literally me and one or two others overrun by the rest of the site, which is why I didn't debate it long: I knew how it would go so I was merely stating my position for the record. I wasn't exaggerating before: Those of us who argued for paged threads were literally 2% of those responding. Why on Earth would Ben or anyone in their right mind make a change 98% of the site vehemently opposes just to please the other 2%? Why would anyone want to join a site where that can happen? No, they're not going to agree with our arguments pages are better than trees because, for them, they manifestly aren't.
A compromise allowing both is not just the only fair solution, it's the only POSSIBLE solution for you and I. I want paged threads and would never use nesting again given the option, but I'd resist any attempt to deny the majority nesting ardently desired for very valid reasons as strongly as they would. As I said earlier, the only thing less fair than the majority imposing a format you and I detest on us would be us imposing one they equally detest on them. If the goal is truly making RAFO better and more inviting rather than suiting it to one groups preference, the ideal solution is one with as many preferences as possible, so no one is forced to use a format they dislike. We needn't choose between nesting and paging, and would be wrong to do so, whichever came out on top; more practically, nesting would always win, so if you don't want it to continue being forced on us, seek a compromise.
I think I understand the animosity to change a little too well. I notice you referred to nesting as "the only thing that differentiates this site from other WoT sites". Drop the "other"; when RAFO was only a suggestion on the wotmania CMB the group decided it would NOT be a WoT site, and it isn't. I (accurately or not) perceive the same sentiment in the widespread distaste for WoT as in that for paging. This is how a lot of people want it, they fought hard to get it and they won't give it up any easier. Put yourself in their shoes though: Why should they give up a unique part of a site they've enjoyed for a decade, in many cases the reason they CHOSE that site and made it their own, just so people with plenty of other sites whose formats suit them MIGHT join? A fair number of people argued for and against a gradual move away from WoT (though a clear majority argued for it); the debate over nesting was literally me and one or two others overrun by the rest of the site, which is why I didn't debate it long: I knew how it would go so I was merely stating my position for the record. I wasn't exaggerating before: Those of us who argued for paged threads were literally 2% of those responding. Why on Earth would Ben or anyone in their right mind make a change 98% of the site vehemently opposes just to please the other 2%? Why would anyone want to join a site where that can happen? No, they're not going to agree with our arguments pages are better than trees because, for them, they manifestly aren't.
A compromise allowing both is not just the only fair solution, it's the only POSSIBLE solution for you and I. I want paged threads and would never use nesting again given the option, but I'd resist any attempt to deny the majority nesting ardently desired for very valid reasons as strongly as they would. As I said earlier, the only thing less fair than the majority imposing a format you and I detest on us would be us imposing one they equally detest on them. If the goal is truly making RAFO better and more inviting rather than suiting it to one groups preference, the ideal solution is one with as many preferences as possible, so no one is forced to use a format they dislike. We needn't choose between nesting and paging, and would be wrong to do so, whichever came out on top; more practically, nesting would always win, so if you don't want it to continue being forced on us, seek a compromise.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 11/05/2011 at 09:50:27 PM
Wishlist
09/05/2011 08:26:23 AM
- 5785 Views
I thought we already had one
09/05/2011 11:45:34 AM
- 1482 Views
That is essentially Goodreads. *NM*
09/05/2011 02:42:06 PM
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I specifically noted I do not want it to become a Librarything/Goodreads copy.
09/05/2011 09:16:27 PM
- 1426 Views
Wotmania content (FAQ, Theory post, personality test, etc.) and Chat *NM*
09/05/2011 02:53:08 PM
- 849 Views
Also agree here, at least where intellectual property isn't an issue.
09/05/2011 06:41:27 PM
- 1408 Views
The Books MB, for example, has had more posts than the WoTMB in the past while.
09/05/2011 08:20:04 PM
- 1336 Views
I think the BMB is the future, but am not convinced it's the present, or the road to the future.
09/05/2011 09:58:01 PM
- 1665 Views
Or there is just a link between WoT fans and answering the quick poll.
09/05/2011 10:27:18 PM
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I did consider that possibility, yes.
10/05/2011 02:24:02 AM
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Re: I did consider that possibility, yes.
10/05/2011 11:11:37 AM
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Like I say, the data doesn't allow for certainty, but I've seen no data contrary to my premise.
11/05/2011 08:49:28 AM
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Re: Wotmania content (FAQ, Theory post, personality test, etc.) and Chat
22/07/2011 05:35:32 AM
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A new messageboard style
09/05/2011 06:49:10 PM
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I hate other bulletin board styles. Hate.
09/05/2011 06:55:31 PM
- 1571 Views
09/05/2011 07:14:56 PM
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Well. I half agree with that.
09/05/2011 08:35:41 PM
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Help thing?
09/05/2011 09:55:18 PM
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Yes. The Help link on every page which currently goes nowhere. *NM*
09/05/2011 10:21:09 PM
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phpBB has an "ignore" option
09/05/2011 10:50:39 PM
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The thing is its the fun awesome people who do the tangents
09/05/2011 10:58:42 PM
- 1460 Views
1996 is over
09/05/2011 11:52:48 PM
- 1330 Views
THe option to show posts with newest replies first allows for that
09/05/2011 11:57:57 PM
- 1345 Views
a few things
10/05/2011 12:05:50 AM
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I'm surprised to have gotten this strong of a reaction
10/05/2011 12:30:21 AM
- 1346 Views
For what it's worth
10/05/2011 12:45:45 AM
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Re: For what it's worth
10/05/2011 08:29:08 AM
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It's possible
10/05/2011 11:45:26 AM
- 1456 Views
Re: It's possible
10/05/2011 12:02:51 PM
- 1387 Views
No, I got it
10/05/2011 01:03:59 PM
- 1352 Views
Re: No, I got it
10/05/2011 01:14:01 PM
- 1477 Views
Re: No, I got it
10/05/2011 04:42:57 PM
- 1351 Views
Re: No, I got it
10/05/2011 04:52:06 PM
- 1348 Views
Yes
10/05/2011 05:10:07 PM
- 1385 Views
There's a firefox extension "interclue" that allows you to preview webpages before clicking links
10/05/2011 05:18:05 PM
- 1275 Views
This site has what, 10% or so percent of wotmania's activity in its heyday?
10/05/2011 10:45:51 PM
- 1546 Views
I used to spend quite a lot of time on other sites.
10/05/2011 12:14:09 PM
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Which type of sites?
10/05/2011 01:06:32 PM
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*NM*
11/05/2011 06:36:55 AM
- 725 Views
I actually had no idea to whom this response was directed.
11/05/2011 07:10:32 PM
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I agree with everything Rebakah and F&R said. I loathe the bulletin board style. *NM*
09/05/2011 07:12:53 PM
- 773 Views
I think forcing either style on anyone tends to discourage membership from those who want the other.
09/05/2011 08:23:13 PM
- 1470 Views
This is a good alternative,
09/05/2011 08:39:07 PM
- 1468 Views
Thanks; you can't please everyone, but this seems like the closest we'll get.
09/05/2011 10:25:00 PM
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Nice assumption
09/05/2011 10:32:35 PM
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If it became a habit it would be annoying, yeah, but is there reason to think it would?
10/05/2011 01:33:50 AM
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Human nature
10/05/2011 11:21:05 AM
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Human nature is to learn from mistakes, and that's not significantly less likely under either system
11/05/2011 08:58:06 AM
- 1394 Views
If RAFO wants to attract new members....
09/05/2011 10:55:36 PM
- 1447 Views
You can guarantee a large amount of people will leave if that vile phpBB type board is introduced
09/05/2011 11:01:43 PM
- 1455 Views
I see it the opposite way
10/05/2011 12:04:42 AM
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It shouldn't be an either/or, a choice between retaining wotmaniacs or welcoming new members.
10/05/2011 02:00:04 AM
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While I agree with everyone who hates BB boards...
16/05/2011 06:26:04 AM
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I like the slider from nested to pages, yeah, thanks.
16/05/2011 06:54:02 AM
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Oh, my
16/05/2011 07:10:17 AM
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They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
16/05/2011 07:49:04 AM
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Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
16/05/2011 07:58:55 AM
- 1359 Views
Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
16/05/2011 09:22:44 PM
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Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
18/05/2011 09:21:13 AM
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I'd probably like it better if I weren't such an awful hitter.
18/05/2011 11:20:06 PM
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I adore our set up.
09/05/2011 11:05:34 PM
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Explanation, please.
10/05/2011 05:50:20 PM
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I love that there are many examples of why this board style is a good thing in this thread.
10/05/2011 10:59:03 PM
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There are also many counterexamples; depends on your perspective.
11/05/2011 09:08:19 AM
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it's a bug, not a feature
11/05/2011 06:45:29 PM
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I may be misinterpreting, and maybe this is the catch 22 (you don't read my posts.)
11/05/2011 08:18:32 PM
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I believe the way of counting active visitors has changed, though.
11/05/2011 08:25:27 PM
- 1324 Views
He did say something like that, yes; wotmania counted people active for AGES after the logout.
11/05/2011 10:01:56 PM
- 1283 Views
No, it's very much a feature, and that's coming from someone who shares your preference and reasons.
11/05/2011 09:44:51 PM
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It's so much a feature to me, that I'd leave if it went to BB. Also, tangents.
12/05/2011 05:40:45 PM
- 1461 Views
I agree, I hate this old MBstyle. Its time to leave the dark ages. *NM*
13/05/2011 03:01:50 PM
- 757 Views
Your brain is just addled by hormones.
13/05/2011 03:14:27 PM
- 1347 Views
Hva addled hjernen min?
13/05/2011 04:36:14 PM
- 1359 Views
Acknowledgement of me as your ruler *NM*
09/05/2011 07:12:31 PM
- 720 Views
"JESUS is our only ruler!"
10/05/2011 03:00:01 AM
- 1191 Views
IRV is terrible, and is the worst option other than FPTP
10/05/2011 06:07:27 PM
- 1293 Views
But Borda isn't Condorcet complete either.
11/05/2011 08:45:05 AM
- 1428 Views
Smiley Reduction/Alteration?
09/05/2011 07:30:25 PM
- 1147 Views
Also with quotes and close brackets. <---- This is WEIRD.
09/05/2011 07:34:13 PM
- 1311 Views
That is quite possibly my biggest annoyance with the whole site.
09/05/2011 07:40:48 PM
- 1262 Views
Nothing really big, apart from what others have said, and less that's new.
09/05/2011 07:54:03 PM
- 1467 Views
How about a music MB?
09/05/2011 08:00:33 PM
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I think it wouldn't be used much.
09/05/2011 08:08:52 PM
- 1346 Views
Yeah a post on the Com MB every other week works just fine. *NM*
09/05/2011 08:16:49 PM
- 761 Views
Or turn the TV & Movie board into a pop culture board we'd just need to get rid of the rubbish admin
09/05/2011 09:13:41 PM
- 1458 Views
Stop being a brat!
09/05/2011 09:57:35 PM
- 1464 Views
But it is Jens!
09/05/2011 10:16:23 PM
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Re: I think it wouldn't be used much.
09/05/2011 08:36:05 PM
- 1371 Views
collapsing of extended thread nests
09/05/2011 11:09:23 PM
- 1331 Views
pfft. get a wider screen. problem solved. *NM*
10/05/2011 04:06:51 PM
- 755 Views
Nah, it would also be nice to not have to go past all of that to get to part of a post you actually
15/05/2011 04:37:48 PM
- 1322 Views
Quick question, how many users are registered here? *NM*
10/05/2011 01:38:37 AM
- 1561 Views
I think the search page User List gives a good estimate (~725 total, counts/MB inside).
10/05/2011 02:44:50 AM
- 1443 Views
It doesn't
13/05/2011 10:29:32 AM
- 1449 Views
That surprises me, but I'm glad to have a (much) more accurate number, thanks.
13/05/2011 04:16:14 PM
- 1390 Views
Now that I'm thinking of Quick Polls: Maybe require voters to login during the feedback phase?
10/05/2011 03:05:51 AM
- 1346 Views
Anyone else notice that everyone replying participates on the book, tv + movies and comm boards
10/05/2011 02:18:08 PM
- 1389 Views
It doesn't help that we make them feel like a blemish on the RAFO scene.
10/05/2011 04:45:33 PM
- 1369 Views
Yeah, I don't get why the WOTlers aren't interested in saying something anywhere else
11/05/2011 09:54:50 AM
- 1318 Views
I think it's as simple as a lot of them just being WoT fans (which is not a crime. )
11/05/2011 06:20:08 PM
- 1429 Views
I can agree to that. Provided of course, being a dan brown fan is still punishable by a severe...
11/05/2011 06:30:08 PM
- 1177 Views
You put me in a difficult position, caught between two important principles.
11/05/2011 08:22:33 PM
- 1465 Views
Hey, reply to the right post
11/05/2011 08:58:30 PM
- 1401 Views
I did, I just merged another one; I usually do, but can't with nesting.
11/05/2011 11:01:16 PM
- 1513 Views
You put me in a difficult position, caught between two important principles.
11/05/2011 08:52:04 PM
- 1309 Views
I've seen most people who've replied post on the WoTMB at least occasionally.
11/05/2011 11:26:44 PM
- 1383 Views
You are clearly wrong.
12/05/2011 04:58:34 PM
- 1156 Views
Its prime ended before the split? Bah, you old geezers always hassle us kids for livin' our life!
12/05/2011 07:32:02 PM
- 1365 Views
Report post, moderation powers to all boards, spoiler tags, NM bug, bug submitter's name displayed.
10/05/2011 05:59:58 PM
- 1182 Views
Re: your suggestions
10/05/2011 11:03:00 PM
- 1231 Views
Re: your suggestions
11/05/2011 08:24:38 AM
- 1194 Views
It's just that...
11/05/2011 06:04:46 PM
- 1317 Views
hahaha that's understandable. Well, leave me off the upgraded powers list, then.
11/05/2011 07:46:01 PM
- 1402 Views
Whoa. You can change quote styles? News to me. *NM*
11/05/2011 10:02:10 PM
- 708 Views
It's all there, in the help section at the top of the board.
12/05/2011 04:50:44 PM
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Shush, you. *NM*
13/05/2011 08:56:05 AM
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Regarding the forum style
10/05/2011 11:17:50 PM
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I support any improvement that won't impair functionality for others.
11/05/2011 05:26:02 PM
- 1332 Views
Just an observation/question about post-clicking
11/05/2011 05:42:30 PM
- 1372 Views
It's a real pain in the ass when the site's running slow.
11/05/2011 07:14:20 PM
- 1239 Views
Or your internet is; I've spent about 4 hours now reading and responding to less than a dozen posts.
11/05/2011 07:31:17 PM
- 1355 Views
It's more than laziness, yes.
11/05/2011 07:53:52 PM
- 1342 Views
Active Users: 51
11/05/2011 01:19:25 AM
- 1363 Views
Also
11/05/2011 04:36:17 AM
- 1408 Views
Who asked to be added to the Skype thing and was completely ignored?
12/05/2011 06:32:00 AM
- 1383 Views
I wonder if there is a way to make the Search function work...
11/05/2011 09:56:54 AM
- 1265 Views
There is an easy fix for that.
11/05/2011 06:09:10 PM
- 1363 Views
Links in posts - can they not take us to a new page but to a new tab/window, please?
12/05/2011 05:49:23 PM
- 1380 Views
It's not, but a simple right-click and select "Open in new tab" does the job in FF, at least.
12/05/2011 10:40:27 PM
- 1384 Views
Clicking links with your scroll wheel opens them in a new tab. *NM*
12/05/2011 11:32:29 PM
- 756 Views
some kind of "reply all" feature?
13/05/2011 06:35:15 AM
- 1363 Views
Not sure about implementation, but I like this; I wouldn't want pages as much with this.
13/05/2011 04:21:27 PM
- 1397 Views
Two things: facebook and searching within a post
13/05/2011 03:07:37 PM
- 1368 Views
I can add a comment for Facebook liking.
13/05/2011 06:48:16 PM
- 1591 Views
Maybe it's another IE vs. Firefox thing.
13/05/2011 08:52:53 PM
- 1456 Views
I use chrome
13/05/2011 09:47:06 PM
- 1280 Views
Works now, looks like; thanks to Bekah (or apologies to Ben if I missed it earlier).
21/05/2011 10:29:26 PM
- 1335 Views
Make me an Admin!
13/05/2011 04:17:59 PM
- 1390 Views
Of what, exactly? You have no discernible skills beside account corruption. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:27:51 PM
- 801 Views
I demand silence from the peanut gallery! *NM*
15/05/2011 02:25:52 AM
- 703 Views
Since I don't think anyone else has mentioned it here - HTML
15/05/2011 09:00:39 PM
- 1479 Views
The email alerts for NBs option is coming (I think).
15/05/2011 11:22:58 PM
- 1435 Views
I hope so. I hate going onto the forum and replying "check noteboard" so they get an alert *NM*
25/06/2011 04:39:43 PM
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WYSIWYG! *NM*
27/05/2011 02:25:49 PM
- 741 Views
is inherently evil. *NM*
27/05/2011 02:40:51 PM
- 650 Views
...and yet inherently accessible to the non-geek masses
30/05/2011 02:34:58 AM
- 1323 Views
As I said...
30/05/2011 08:55:32 AM
- 1342 Views
We could always just put a banner on the home page that says, "no non-geeks need apply".
26/06/2011 12:00:31 AM
- 1299 Views
A redesigned home page!
22/05/2011 04:26:27 AM
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Unhh... Privacy statement?
19/07/2011 06:14:49 PM
- 1247 Views
"Rules" would be a better place, IMHO; we're told at least one of those links should soon work.
22/07/2011 04:08:54 PM
- 1275 Views
Thanks for the response / comment, Josh
23/07/2011 08:59:02 AM
- 1205 Views
I assume it just means people are too busy working on the site to answer immediately.
23/07/2011 02:06:48 PM
- 1247 Views
Admins should be able to move Posts into an already existing thread
20/07/2011 02:52:05 PM
- 1288 Views
since most of us are science fiction fans as well as fantasy fans...
22/07/2011 07:56:29 PM
- 1551 Views
Feel free to use the Science category on this (the Community) MB *NM*
23/07/2011 04:35:06 AM
- 707 Views