The anomalies:
The thing is, we remember the dreams that *do* come true. What about all the dreams that didn't, and you forgot them soon after? All the signs of this unseen force are not great evidence because this is evidence that's self selecting. If you did many many experiments and you only paid attention to the data points that you like, that wouldn't be very scientific.
And hey, maybe psychic instances can be in the future explained by some off shoot of quantum mechanics. Maybe you really did predict the future in a dream or two and it's because the atoms aligned in a specific way. It's all probability functions. According to quantum mechanics, nothing is impossible but it's all just extremely improbable.
Yes, that's a huge roadblock to atheism- it's viewed as too depressing.
Hey Tom- do you want to hang out with skeptics? There's Drinking with Atheists, there's Drinking Skeptically, etc. Tomorrow evening is a meet up of the "Jolly Thirteen" club that's all about fun with superstitions. It's at an afghani restaurant near Midtown tomorrow starting at 8 pm. We get together on the 13'th of every month. Let me know.
The thing is, we remember the dreams that *do* come true. What about all the dreams that didn't, and you forgot them soon after? All the signs of this unseen force are not great evidence because this is evidence that's self selecting. If you did many many experiments and you only paid attention to the data points that you like, that wouldn't be very scientific.
And hey, maybe psychic instances can be in the future explained by some off shoot of quantum mechanics. Maybe you really did predict the future in a dream or two and it's because the atoms aligned in a specific way. It's all probability functions. According to quantum mechanics, nothing is impossible but it's all just extremely improbable.
Yes, that's a huge roadblock to atheism- it's viewed as too depressing.
Hey Tom- do you want to hang out with skeptics? There's Drinking with Atheists, there's Drinking Skeptically, etc. Tomorrow evening is a meet up of the "Jolly Thirteen" club that's all about fun with superstitions. It's at an afghani restaurant near Midtown tomorrow starting at 8 pm. We get together on the 13'th of every month. Let me know.
For me, there are certain experiences that cannot be adequately explained through a traditional understanding of space, time, life and death. The fact that we are unable to measure them does not mean they are not affecting us. An (admittedly imperfect) analogy would be a blind person unable to prove the sun exists. Yes, he can step outside and feel warmth, but he can do that on cloudy days or even at night in the summer.
I realize that of course the sun is easier to measure and quantify, but that is perhaps because there are plenty of people who aren't blind. Imagine, however, a force that none of us are able to sense well, but that some people sense in little isolated instances. Measuring this force would be difficult because observation would not be consistent enough.
Taking this sense that people have of the divine and writing "conclusive" books about these experiences is sheer folly and leads to the oppression of religious dogma. On the other hand...how do I explain the dreams that come true? My friend continues to tell people how I told him, in the Summer of 2001, that he should move out of downtown NY because I dreamt of a major terrorist attack and told him about it. Why did I tell him in the first place? Because I had a dream, exactly one week before the event, that detailed a friend's fatal car accident, down to the road, the weather conditions, and the fact that the friend had been secretly dating another friend of mine. I told my friend living downtown about this dream and he said, "Tell me if you ever dream about something that could affect me." I also dreamed, a few months before it happened, that I was standing in Manhattan and looking at the river and a plane was floating down it. I told my friends about this one, and when that plane landed in the Hudson my friends looked at me.
Is that evidence of God? Certainly not, at least not in a scientific sense. Do I feel that there is "something" that is going on that I can't fully appreciate? Certainly. Additional anecdotal evidence through history shows that I am not alone in seeing dreams as having some sort of meaning.
I'm not ready to draw specific conclusions, but I'm very interested in attempts to investigate, in a serious manner, these sorts of "spiritual" events.
Of course, the only reason I wouldn't recommend going from agnostic to atheist is that it's a bit depressing. However, it's certainly a reasonable step if you're that convinced. Just don't let your conviction close your eyes to anomalies in the world around you!
I realize that of course the sun is easier to measure and quantify, but that is perhaps because there are plenty of people who aren't blind. Imagine, however, a force that none of us are able to sense well, but that some people sense in little isolated instances. Measuring this force would be difficult because observation would not be consistent enough.
Taking this sense that people have of the divine and writing "conclusive" books about these experiences is sheer folly and leads to the oppression of religious dogma. On the other hand...how do I explain the dreams that come true? My friend continues to tell people how I told him, in the Summer of 2001, that he should move out of downtown NY because I dreamt of a major terrorist attack and told him about it. Why did I tell him in the first place? Because I had a dream, exactly one week before the event, that detailed a friend's fatal car accident, down to the road, the weather conditions, and the fact that the friend had been secretly dating another friend of mine. I told my friend living downtown about this dream and he said, "Tell me if you ever dream about something that could affect me." I also dreamed, a few months before it happened, that I was standing in Manhattan and looking at the river and a plane was floating down it. I told my friends about this one, and when that plane landed in the Hudson my friends looked at me.
Is that evidence of God? Certainly not, at least not in a scientific sense. Do I feel that there is "something" that is going on that I can't fully appreciate? Certainly. Additional anecdotal evidence through history shows that I am not alone in seeing dreams as having some sort of meaning.
I'm not ready to draw specific conclusions, but I'm very interested in attempts to investigate, in a serious manner, these sorts of "spiritual" events.
Of course, the only reason I wouldn't recommend going from agnostic to atheist is that it's a bit depressing. However, it's certainly a reasonable step if you're that convinced. Just don't let your conviction close your eyes to anomalies in the world around you!
Questions about souls...
12/04/2011 03:06:54 AM
- 2075 Views
You assume we all know, and agree on, what "soul" means.
12/04/2011 08:42:47 AM
- 998 Views
It is what hope, which is a thing with feathers, perches on.
12/04/2011 07:32:07 PM
- 1046 Views
But seriously, what does it do?
12/04/2011 11:01:58 PM
- 1046 Views
it wouldn't change much for me, but I'm pretty flexible in my spiritual beliefs
12/04/2011 04:23:34 PM
- 1083 Views
Re: Questions about souls...
12/04/2011 05:44:53 PM
- 1131 Views
What a fantasy.
12/04/2011 07:57:38 PM
- 1003 Views
Your comments, or mine?
13/04/2011 01:24:53 AM
- 1472 Views
I'm a Christian who is partial to reincarnation, so I do not think much would change.
12/04/2011 06:21:36 PM
- 1043 Views
*is disappointed* *NM*
12/04/2011 08:01:05 PM
- 528 Views
You'd be surprised how frequently I get that from both sides.
12/04/2011 08:22:24 PM
- 1027 Views
I bet you do!
12/04/2011 08:47:59 PM
- 989 Views
I think we are similar in some respects philosophically.
13/04/2011 05:59:38 AM
- 975 Views
That's pretty much how I feel. Being a universalist helps in that respect. *NM*
13/04/2011 06:25:34 AM
- 596 Views
So then my question is....
13/04/2011 07:08:42 PM
- 936 Views
Because I believe that Jesus was an incarnation of the λόγος.
14/04/2011 12:36:36 AM
- 972 Views
*heh*
14/04/2011 04:12:32 PM
- 1084 Views
I think I answered it pretty clearly in my post title. *NM*
14/04/2011 06:59:47 PM
- 603 Views
I think that, like a lot of other people responding, I would want and need more information.
12/04/2011 07:13:14 PM
- 969 Views
Speaking of the agnostic/atheist thing
12/04/2011 07:40:04 PM
- 1012 Views
99% that there is no God...
12/04/2011 08:08:42 PM
- 1075 Views
Technically, no, atheists simply lack belief in a God.
12/04/2011 08:19:15 PM
- 994 Views
Whoah there,
12/04/2011 08:26:43 PM
- 983 Views
Okay, I have to admit I wasn't expecting to get called out on that.
13/04/2011 04:03:08 AM
- 1068 Views
And that's why I don't quibble with %'s, I just say I'm an atheist *NM*
12/04/2011 09:45:31 PM
- 640 Views
It certainly doesn't mean you can't make conclusions.
12/04/2011 08:09:41 PM
- 1086 Views
Re: Campbell:
12/04/2011 08:42:09 PM
- 1086 Views
Self-identification is an interesting point here.
12/04/2011 09:00:46 PM
- 979 Views
Re: Agree
12/04/2011 09:22:22 PM
- 1018 Views
Sadly enough, one of my favorite explanations of religion came from someone discussing a video game.
13/04/2011 04:12:23 AM
- 1025 Views
Re: I'm basically a Magi. I'm going to travel to Brazil and then take over the world. *NM*
13/04/2011 04:18:25 AM
- 603 Views
Either you meant "Magus" or you are a schizophrenic wizard. Both are acceptably awesome.
13/04/2011 05:37:34 AM
- 1022 Views
Re: I think it was Jarod Diamond...
14/04/2011 03:39:32 AM
- 1009 Views
Answers.
12/04/2011 09:05:38 PM
- 981 Views
That's not a compelling counter-argument for me.
12/04/2011 11:22:21 PM
- 1147 Views
Never mind.
12/04/2011 11:34:46 PM
- 946 Views
Have you had any vivid dreams that came true?
13/04/2011 01:16:59 AM
- 919 Views
My mom used to have dreams like that, usually about relatives.
13/04/2011 02:25:45 AM
- 1063 Views
I can easily believe that.
13/04/2011 06:14:51 AM
- 921 Views
Taking things at face value is usually unwise, but the face value can still be correct.
24/04/2011 12:11:51 AM
- 864 Views
Minivans can fit lots of useful stuffs, like furniture. *NM*
13/04/2011 03:47:04 PM
- 604 Views
So can gas-guzzling SUVs, and full trucks. *NM*
13/04/2011 05:13:20 PM
- 558 Views
for that matter, you can fit a surprising amount even in a baby truck! *NM*
13/04/2011 06:36:58 PM
- 535 Views
Well, as I said in my census form on Sunday
12/04/2011 08:36:05 PM
- 1119 Views
It would upset my belief in science
12/04/2011 09:39:39 PM
- 1112 Views
There's so much wrong with that statement.
12/04/2011 09:55:45 PM
- 1092 Views
If science proved there really was an Easter Bunny would it affect your believe in science? *NM*
12/04/2011 10:30:09 PM
- 644 Views
*is both bored and annoyed*
12/04/2011 11:03:10 PM
- 981 Views
and what if science proved that science was false?
12/04/2011 11:48:32 PM
- 1051 Views
I think that's kind of the point; it can't.
13/04/2011 01:33:44 AM
- 933 Views
Did you read my original post?
13/04/2011 03:13:34 AM
- 891 Views
I did, yes.
13/04/2011 03:32:18 AM
- 934 Views
Yes it would upset my belief in science, why is that so hard to accept
13/04/2011 01:56:59 PM
- 1041 Views
Well, if that's all it is, we know that a lot of that broad base is wrong.
24/04/2011 01:18:05 AM
- 1181 Views
What's a soul?
12/04/2011 10:51:39 PM
- 955 Views
I can only give you my personal take.
13/04/2011 01:47:39 AM
- 1094 Views
Actually the reason you don't revive people denied oxygen half an hour is due to chemical processes.
13/04/2011 04:08:37 AM
- 1025 Views
True, but even well preserved brains require more than a jump start to resume life.
23/04/2011 09:20:42 PM
- 881 Views
so did this guy took a railroad spike through the head
13/04/2011 01:58:52 PM
- 1108 Views
Nah, he just got someone else's added to him. But now Ruin can influence him. *NM*
13/04/2011 06:38:31 PM
- 607 Views
Thanks a lot
13/04/2011 07:02:29 PM
- 980 Views
I'm really happy you've read them and got the reference. Phineas Gage, Steel Inquisitor. *NM*
14/04/2011 12:29:01 AM
- 530 Views
No.
23/04/2011 09:15:16 PM
- 985 Views
but we know personality can be draticaly altered by physical means
24/04/2011 03:28:36 AM
- 1305 Views
I assume you're implying time travel between past-life or future-life experiences.
12/04/2011 11:26:19 PM
- 1011 Views
I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space
13/04/2011 04:00:51 PM
- 974 Views
Re: I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space
14/04/2011 03:29:55 AM
- 986 Views
Interesting concept....
13/04/2011 07:28:42 PM
- 952 Views
Heh. Loose faith.
14/04/2011 02:32:27 AM
- 981 Views